"First Class at the front of the train"

[swt_passenger]

For me, the easiest (most passenger friendly) way to show all the information you've just mentioned is by one of these:

So how would you get that to work on XC?

 

[Ze Random One]

There are two very elegant solutions to this problem.
The first, as has been discussed already, is used by SNCF.
Photo (Not mine)
The red spot says "You are here", and the small letters on the screen (below the train) correspond with markers on the platforms.
If a train is dividing en-route, the destination section above the train indicates which portion goes where.
In all honesty, however, I think the best solution is that used by the Japanese.
They have mini-departure boards at 20m intervals down the platforms, as shown here (again not mine), which shows the car number for the next two trains expected in.

Although a screen every 20m like that might be overkill, one every 40-46m showing the two nearest coach letters would be adequate.

 

[D1009]

Crosscountry trains go right to the southern end of the platform (so the driver can see the signal), and you will always see a crowd of people running down to get on. TPE and Northern services stop just about where the footbridge is.

Do I take it from this that XC drivers need to see the signal but Northern and TPE drivers don't ??

 

[142094]

Do I take it from this that XC drivers need to see the signal but Northern and TPE drivers don't ??

Just one of many observations that I made when working at York - why it is done I have no idea, seeing as there are OFF indicators along the full length of the platform and XC services are usually dispatched by East Coast platform staff. I can't see any other reason for it.

 

[D1009]

Just one of many observations that I made when working at York - why it is done I have no idea, seeing as there are OFF indicators along the full length of the platform and XC services are usually dispatched by East Coast platform staff. I can't see any other reason for it.

When the Voyagers first came in, Virgin erected special stop markers for their drivers at almost all the stations they called at. These show VT in large letters and 4/5 car stop or 8/10 car stop as appropriate. Many of these signs are still around although Virgin no longer run XC. This can mean they stop at a different place on the platform from other TOCs, and this confuses passengers, sometimes causing delay. I presume this is what happens at York.

 

[bronzeonion]

I don't understand why door markers are not on the platforms like they are in Japan. Just a simple vinyl self adhesive marker will do, indicating the type of train, where 1st class is and which coach you are about to board when you queue at the markers.

By the way, this is my first post despite making an account quite a while back!

 

[jopsuk]

As this thread has gone over, fixed markers are only any good for one formation in one orientation. On XC's routes, they can have 4, 5, 9 and 10 car Voyagers with 1st class at either end of each unit and HSTs that can run either way round. Most stations served by East Coast on the rother hand do feature some sort of fixed markers, as they've got two formations* which are fairly similar and almost always have 1st class at the London end.


*the "B spec" HST has the same carriage lettering as the Mallard spec, pedants

 

[bronzeonion]

As this thread has gone over, fixed markers are only any good for one formation in one orientation. On XC's routes, they can have 4, 5, 9 and 10 car Voyagers with 1st class at either end of each unit and HSTs that can run either way round. Most stations served by East Coast on the rother hand do feature some sort of fixed markers, as they've got two formations* which are fairly similar and almost always have 1st class at the London end.


*the "B spec" HST has the same carriage lettering as the Mallard spec, pedants

They do not have to be for one formation. For example you could have a small cartoon image of the train, the car number and wether it is first class or not so that passengers know to queue at the markers with the image of their train on, maybe even colour code them. This would work well on Virgin Trains as they distinguish the two different type of trains on the DMI's on the platform.

 

[142094]

They do not have to be for one formation. For example you could have a small cartoon image of the train, the car number and wether it is first class or not so that passengers know to queue at the markers with the image of their train on, maybe even colour code them. This would work well on Virgin Trains as they distinguish the two different type of trains on the DMI's on the platform.

It's already been said before that there could be the possibility of having a lot of different markers for all the variations that happen - that would probably confuse passengers even more than now.

Even on some ECML stations, where East Coast have A boards with "Wait here for Coach D" etc, a lot of people waiting for TPE or XC will wait there as they haven't seen the "On East Coast services only" in small writing.

 

[tbtc]

I don't understand why door markers are not on the platforms like they are in Japan. Just a simple vinyl self adhesive marker will do, indicating the type of train, where 1st class is and which coach you are about to board when you queue at the markers

Due to the wonders of our train procurement there are

• a variety of lengths of carriage (e.g. 15m/ 20m/ 23m)
• a variety of door positions (at the ends of the carriages, at "one third"/"two third" positions and the Pacer example)
• a variety of lengths of train (even with the same TOC on the same route)

On a route like Crossrail (where there will only be one length of carriage, only be one type of train, only be one length of train etc) you can have platform doors and/or indicators for where the doors will be. However to do that at a station like Sheffield would confuse things (as you can't guarantee your train type/ length - and due to some trains reversing en route you can't be sure of which end "First" will be).

This is a serious problem though - for all the improvements on board trains (plugs, wifi, passenger display screens, clearer announcements etc) the "on platform" experience really hasn't improved since privatisation - there's surely scope to improve things (and stop people from getting stressed at where to stand, esp with luggage or seat reservations).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
eta - the EMT 158s on Liverpool - Nottingham (which pass through Sheffield) are formed of Coach A - Coach C - Coach C - Coach A (due to being doubled up units). Having a board saying "wait here for Coach A" may confuse things - I don't know how it works for reservations!

 

[jopsuk]

to make it clearer for XC, first class could be (I think they use all these formations?)
on a 2+7 HST, 1 & 2 or 6 & 7 passenger car (and there's power cars as well)
on a four car 220, 1 or 4
on a five car 221, 1 or 5
on an eight car voyager, 1 & 5, 4 & 5 or 4 & 8
on a nine car voyager, 1 & 5, 1 & 6, 1 & 9, 4 & 5, 4 & 9, 5 & 6 or 5 & 9
on a ten car voyager, 1 & 6, 1 & 10, 5 & 6 or 5 & 10.

They also hire in longer HSTs occasionally.

And then they call at a lot of stations also served by FGW HSTs (2+7 and 2+8), Virgin Pendolinos and Voyagers, EMT Meridians and HSTs and East Coast HSTs and 225s. And that's just the Intercity stock.

 

[tbtc]

to make it clearer for XC, first class could be (I think they use all these formations?)
on a 2+7 HST, 1 & 2 or 6 & 7 passenger car (and there's power cars as well)
on a four car 220, 1 or 4
on a five car 221, 1 or 5
on an eight car voyager, 1 & 5, 4 & 5 or 4 & 8
on a nine car voyager, 1 & 5, 1 & 6, 1 & 9, 4 & 5, 4 & 9, 5 & 6 or 5 & 9
on a ten car voyager, 1 & 6, 1 & 10, 5 & 6 or 5 & 10.

They also hire in longer HSTs occasionally.

And then they call at a lot of stations also served by FGW HSTs (2+7 and 2+8), Virgin Pendolinos and Voyagers, EMT Meridians and HSTs and East Coast HSTs and 225s. And that's just the Intercity stock.

...and then multiply in the fact that those EMT Meridians could be four/five/seven/eight/nine/ten coaches long (with First Class in various positions)...

Nightmare!

 

[brianthegiant]

for all the improvements on board trains (plugs, wifi, passenger display screens, clearer announcements etc) the "on platform" experience really hasn't improved since privatisation - there's surely scope to improve things (and stop people from getting stressed at where to stand, esp with luggage or seat reservations).

Good point, to add to this, there is a strong trend for platform lengthening and longer trains on many new and existing routes. exacerbating the challenge for passengers to find their carriage in sometimes quite short dwell times.

Clearly this is a key area where there is considerable scope for improvement.

Away from routes with uniform stock & formation (crossrail, LUL), clearly there is way too much variation for fixed markers. Electronic train plans with platform zones (ABCD or Gold; Silver; Orange) are the only direction with enough flexibility for now and the future. It's not achievable or essential to know the precise location of the doors, but knowing which section of the platform to be on would be a manifold improvement on the current chaos, especially for those with heavy/bulky luggage, those with impaired vision and other disabilities and the elderly.

 

[tbtc]

Good point, to add to this, there is a strong trend for platform lengthening and longer trains on many new and existing routes. exacerbating the challenge for passengers to find their carriage in sometimes quite short dwell times.

Clearly this is a key area where there is considerable scope for improvement.

Away from routes with uniform stock & formation (crossrail, LUL), clearly there is way too much variation for fixed markers. Electronic train plans with platform zones (ABCD or Gold; Silver; Orange) are the only direction with enough flexibility for now and the future. It's not achievable or essential to know the precise location of the doors, but knowing which section of the platform to be on would be a manifold improvement on the current chaos, especially for those with heavy/bulky luggage, those with impaired vision and other disabilities and the elderly.

Agreed - the Virgin idea seems to be the way forward - especially as some people are confused by "A" platforms (at some stations "2A" is one end of platform 2, at other stations "2A" is a separate platform next to platform 2)

I'm sure it'd make boarding simpler - compare the bus experience (where people queue at the stop right by where the bus door will open) to the train experience (where people mill around the platform and get in each others way).

The Supertram in Sheffield has tactile paving at where the doors will open, which you can obviously only do when you have a uniform fleet, but it ensures that people are standing in the right place. Compare that to the scrum you can see at some train platforms... nightmare!

 

[starrymarkb]

They do not have to be for one formation. For example you could have a small cartoon image of the train, the car number and wether it is first class or not so that passengers know to queue at the markers with the image of their train on, maybe even colour code them. This would work well on Virgin Trains as they distinguish the two different type of trains on the DMI's on the platform.

How about this. All departures from the platform with the booked formation and zones for where the coaches stop

 

[MCR247]

I was going to suggest that, and you'd just replace A-G with zones maybe (orange, blue etc)