First and their issue with late journeys

[mattb7tl]

Given the recent discussion on the EP+ thread, I believe this topic offers an excellent opportunity for conversation.

Within that thread, we delved into the baffling timetables from FirstBus, which have raised concerns due to the elimination of evening and night journeys. These changes affect networks and routes that, not only being remarkably popular (and usually have bus priority measures), are also considered the most profitable in West Yorkshire (check attached image).

This situation underscores that the issue doesn't revolve around profits or ridership alone, but rather stems from an ideological standpoint. The peculiar attitude towards evening and night journeys appears prevalent in virtually all of FirstBus's operations, spanning from areas like the Potteries to densely populated urban regions like Bradford.

This stark contrast becomes evident when you compare FirstBus to other top five bus companies, which are also often deemed as profit-driven. These companies, to some extent, grasp the significance of subsidizing journeys from their own profits, even when journeys operate with minimal or no patronage.

First networks, however, have taken a different approach, even on core, heavily-traveled bus routes, evening and night journeys have been stripped away to the extent that these routes no longer serve a social purpose. Common standard timetables now seem confined to operating from 6 am to 6 pm or 8 pm, vs other companies which usually have their popular core services running from 5am to 10 or 11pm

Would love to hear your thoughts on this issue. I am quite fixated and intrigued by these strange decisions. It makes me wonder whether any area that adopts franchising with first as the main operator will see frequencies rise and have mass amounts of layer journeys introduced with little to no cost to the taxpayer, similar to what we saw at Midland Bluebird.

 

[Volvodart]

Where does the image come from?

 

[AndyHudds]

They just don't seem to care, I had an issue last night, me and my grandson went to take in the Huddersfield Cardiff game, went to get the 18.52 372 service from Almondbury, Bus Times.org showing running late, 10 minutes by the time it gets to Almondbury, goes on to the terminus and then just shoots off down Somerset Road without even starting the route. I mean not only was it chilly, wet and dark but we need to be there or would obviously like to be there for kick off.

There is just no thought or care about passengers who maybe waiting thinking it's gone up. If I had known this 'I couldn't give 2 hoots' attitude was going to be on show we'd have got the 341 at around 18 30. This left Almondbury with no service for an hour as well. Even if I make a complaint about this they'll just give me a long list of their problems and platitudes, they don't care at all, they aren't fit for purpose to offer a public service. Had to let off some steam about it.

 

[mattb7tl]

Where does the image come from?

Lotting Strategy, should be able to find it here

Bus Reform

Our full Consultation Response report is now available to view, including the consultation summary provided by external agency, DJS Research. The information below was presented during the public consultation between 10 October 2023 and 7 January 2024. On 14 March

www.yourvoice.westyorks-ca.gov.uk

 

[JD2168]

In South Yorkshire most First services drop off after around 6pm, even on core routes the frequency drops to hourly with some routes such as 52a & 120 in Sheffield not running after 9pm. Some of these are also funded with some services from the end of this month in evening & all day on Sunday running every 2 hours.

 

[noddingdonkey]

There are some very stange bits of timetabling going on with First West Yorkshire. My local route the 185 lost its evening service after 8pm in the Easter timetable massacre, my strong suspicion is that some bright spark with no local knowledge looked at usage on the old timetable and saw that the old 183 (which diverts away from the main road) had more usage in the evening than the 185, without noticing that instead of a sensible timetable with both of these hourly evening services running 30 minutes apart, the 183 was always 10 minutes ahead of the 185, so it's pretty obvious why it was busier.

There is also a really convenient 2 hour gap in the weekday morning peak towards Huddersfield as vehicles are diverted to serve Colne Valley School.

It feels like a self fulfilling prophecy: People aren't using the bus so let's cut the timetable so it's even less convenient, so yet fewer people use the service. Rinse and repeat until you aren't running any buses at all...

 

[JKP]

I think you will find that the numbers travelling beyond mid evening are very low and operators are no longer willing to provide such on a commercial basis. This is coupled with local authorities being unable to afford to increase their bus subsidy budgets. As a result local authorities are only willing to support routes during core hours which mine has defined in the past as being 0700 to 1900.

 

[mattb7tl]

I think you will find that the numbers travelling beyond mid evening are very low and operators are no longer willing to provide such on a commercial basis. This is coupled with local authorities being unable to afford to increase their bus subsidy budgets. As a result local authorities are only willing to support routes during core hours which mine has defined in the past as being 0700 to 1900.

You don't see the issue to this extent from other companies. Again, with how areas of the region are ranked based on service commerciality. Arriva's are ALL at the least profitable, yet the running times for almost all their commercial local bus routes in Wakefield, end at 10-11pm!
If first bit into their profits the same extent as Arriva? We may actually have timetables you could build your life around.
First's management should be embarrassed that Arriva, out of ANY company, makes their services look poor!

 

[GusB]

The thread title clearly says "First and their issues with late journeys", therefore any discussion of Arriva's services is off-topic.

 

[AndyHudds]

I think you will find that the numbers travelling beyond mid evening are very low and operators are no longer willing to provide such on a commercial basis. This is coupled with local authorities being unable to afford to increase their bus subsidy budgets. As a result local authorities are only willing to support routes during core hours which mine has defined in the past as being 0700 to 1900.

This is why intervention is necessary due to operators not wanting to run services despite there being a social need, ie people going to and from work, midweek football matches, concerts, socialising. I do think on an evening there needs to be some kind of smarter thinking, merging routes, better timetabling, better promotion etc etc. First are guilty of slashing routes willy nilly without any forethought or care how their cuts effect people.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I think you will find that the numbers travelling beyond mid evening are very low and operators are no longer willing to provide such on a commercial basis.

Changes in the evening economy have impacted things, definitely. I understand why evening frequencies are reducing.

Other operators seem to understand that the commerciality of an overall network is what is important. Specific early and late journeys will likely be loss-making, but overall they maintain the integrity and commerciality of the overall network. The evening services might not make money but they maintain the commercial attractiveness and the profitability of the daily and weekly tickets.

Some of Stagecoach Newcastle’s evening services can be quiet but Stagecoach understand the attractiveness of their product is based on a network, not individual journeys.

But it seems a particularly First thing to strip out journeys at a granular level. This one makes money, this one loses money, not considering the overall network.

If it was a recent development I can see how this would happen in West Yorkshire where the £4.50 DaySaver has basically stripped away the operator-specific day tickets.

But with First none of this a recent development, they’ve been doing it for ten years, long before the £2 tickets and long before a good value multi-operator day ticket.

The last 576s used to be 2310 from Halifax and 2325 from Bradford; it’s now 2247 from Bradford and, scandalously, 2203 from Halifax.

You look at non-PTE areas like the Potteries and it’s just as bad, if not worse, and it’s starting to impact the daytime service too. If people can’t use a day ticket after 6pm then they don’t buy the day ticket for travel before 6pm either.

 

[Hophead]

While not on the same scale of low evening provision, it was notable that in Southampton, every First bus was off the road by midnight (I think one final vehicle finished a few minutes past 12), while Bluestar were running their last journeys from the city centre after midnight. Now, new routes 19 & 20 - the only pure city routes switched over - have last journeys arriving at their termini at 0040 & 0033 respectively, and that's every night of the week.

 

[Mwanesh]

With the threat of franchising companies are just going through the motions. They know in a few years they may not have the business.

 

[mattb7tl]

Changes in the evening economy have impacted things, definitely. I understand why evening frequencies are reducing.

Other operators seem to understand that the commerciality of an overall network is what is important. Specific early and late journeys will likely be loss-making, but overall they maintain the integrity and commerciality of the overall network. The evening services might not make money but they maintain the commercial attractiveness and the profitability of the daily and weekly tickets.

Some of Stagecoach Newcastle’s evening services can be quiet but Stagecoach understand the attractiveness of their product is based on a network, not individual journeys.

But it seems a particularly First thing to strip out journeys at a granular level. This one makes money, this one loses money, not considering the overall network.

If it was a recent development I can see how this would happen in West Yorkshire where the £4.50 DaySaver has basically stripped away the operator-specific day tickets.

But with First none of this a recent development, they’ve been doing it for ten years, long before the £2 tickets and long before a good value multi-operator day ticket.

The last 576s used to be 2310 from Halifax and 2325 from Bradford; it’s now 2247 from Bradford and, scandalously, 2203 from Halifax.

You look at non-PTE areas like the Potteries and it’s just as bad, if not worse, and it’s starting to impact the daytime service too. If people can’t use a day ticket after 6pm then they don’t buy the day ticket for travel before 6pm either.

You've got it!

When you rely on buses for your daily life, you seek a sense of security. This means having a dependable timetable for morning and evening, much like a car that's always there when you need it.

I'm not proposing running empty buses just for the sake of it, as that would be impractical and wasteful. However, if a chunk of journeys operate at a loss but still serves a decent number of passengers, it should be subsidized by their own profits. This practice is quite common among companies, with some being more generous in this regard.

I genuinely question whether First is implementing this strategy at all, given that almost all their routes require subsidies, despite running the most profitable routes in the region (WY). In contrast, Arriva and Transdev operate several routes that are not only self-sustaining from taxpayer money but also offer more convenient operating hours compared to the mammoth routes like the 576 and 503!

With the threat of franchising companies are just going through the motions. They know in a few years they may not have the business.

This issue has existed long before authorities were even allowed to consider franchising. I've been quite interested with this issue myself and have not come across an actual excuse for the lack of socially acceptable timetables and with comments from management on enthusiast pages it seems to be entirely down to vision... or lack of!

 

[Andyh82]

I’m guessing the night time volume just isn’t there, particularly since COVID

Yes people will point at the occasional evening football match, or theatre trips, Friday/Saturday nights out, occasional meals out etc but they are not every day all year round

Nights out don’t seem to be as popular as they once were, the night time economy in Bradford is awful, the city is deserted besides dodgy characters post 6pm.

I suppose you need to ask how many are travelling from Halifax to Bradford to justify what people are wanting - buses every 30 mins all evening 7 days a week 52 weeks a year until past 11pm. If franchising introduces such a service, how long do they run it if the passenger numbers don’t pick up?

 

[K4016td]

Maybe the issue wouldn't be as servere if First (or bascially any other company) would consider having couple of smaller buses (or even minibuses) on their depos for the sake of late evening and night journeys? There isn't a point in running a double decker bus throughout the whole day and night which unfortunately often is the case - in my area it helps that First gets subsidy from BAA Heathrow to run these journeys, but if there is no subsidy it's no wonder they can't justify running an almost empty bus.

Actually, when we're in Slough it's worth noting another operator runs one late evening journey on route 12 on weekdays past 7pm which is normally run by First during the day - isn't that a bit wired? I understand it must be a result of a council tender or lack of agreement between the council and the operator?
See links:

Timetables

www.firstbus.co.uk

12 - Slough - Burnham

Timetable for 12 - Slough - Burnham

www.thamesvalleybuses.com

 

[Deerfold]

I’m guessing the night time volume just isn’t there, particularly since COVID

Yes people will point at the occasional evening football match, or theatre trips, Friday/Saturday nights out, occasional meals out etc but they are not every day all year round

Nights out don’t seem to be as popular as they once were, the night time economy in Bradford is awful, the city is deserted besides dodgy characters post 6pm.

I suppose you need to ask how many are travelling from Halifax to Bradford to justify what people are wanting - buses every 30 mins all evening 7 days a week 52 weeks a year until past 11pm. If franchising introduces such a service, how long do they run it if the passenger numbers don’t pick up?

But First hasn't for any decent period run late buses on many routes in Bradford since Covid - if people can't get home without an expensive taxi, many will not go out. I go and see bands occasionally in Bradford, but on an operator who still puts on a last bus at 2320 (0020 Friday and Saturday). They're not running through any more natural bus territory than First.

People go out, but not as many - those who go generally live very close or go out very infrequently due to the cost of getting home.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Oct 2023 ==

Maybe the issue wouldn't be as servere if First (or bascially any other company) would consider having couple of smaller buses (or even minibuses) on their depos for the sake of late evening and night journeys? There isn't a point in running a double decker bus throughout the whole day and night which unfortunately often is the case - in my area it helps that First gets subsidy from BAA Heathrow to run these journeys, but if there is no subsidy it's no wonder they can't justify running an almost empty bus.

Actually, when we're in Slough it's worth noting another operator runs one late evening journey on route 12 on weekdays past 7pm which is normally run by First during the day - isn't that a bit wired? I understand it must be a result of a council tender or lack of agreement between the council and the operator?
See links:

Timetables

www.firstbus.co.uk

12 - Slough - Burnham

Timetable for 12 - Slough - Burnham

www.thamesvalleybuses.com

Late journeys on a couple of routes in Slough are subsidised.

First Beeline's 12 and 13 have replaced the half hourly 5 (via Burnham) to Maidenhead (just Burnham in an evening), and the every 10 minute 1 and 2 to Burnham. Both used to run to Burnham until around 11pm.

 

[Leaguer]

I travel regularly on the 662 to bradford and its busy. Nearly all seats taken on the 2108 arrival

 

[mattb7tl]

I’m guessing the night time volume just isn’t there, particularly since COVID

Yes people will point at the occasional evening football match, or theatre trips, Friday/Saturday nights out, occasional meals out etc but they are not every day all year round

Nights out don’t seem to be as popular as they once were, the night time economy in Bradford is awful, the city is deserted besides dodgy characters post 6pm.

I suppose you need to ask how many are travelling from Halifax to Bradford to justify what people are wanting - buses every 30 mins all evening 7 days a week 52 weeks a year until past 11pm. If franchising introduces such a service, how long do they run it if the passenger numbers don’t pick up?

You would think nobody would travel from Huddersfield to Dewsbury, or the other way around, but the services between those two towns are some of the latest running services in West Yorkshire, and that's competing with a train which is literally four times quicker, and affordable, atleast for train standards anyway...
The popularity of the 202/203 doesn't hold a candle to the likes of the 576, or even the 503. Yet the 202/203 start early, run later, and the best part... run without subsidy!
The 576, and 503, are the opposite. Somehow requiring taxpayer funding and the timetables are unsuitable for the scale of those routes. Especially, with the 503, not having any competition other than an hourly train...

 

[Andyh82]

I don’t think it’s valid to keep comparing First to Arriva.

In my experience they just cut in different ways at different times

 

[mattb7tl]

I don’t think it’s valid to keep comparing First to Arriva.

In my experience they just cut in different ways at different times

Arriva is my choice of comparison because it is the fairest comparison. They aren't a great company and they have been owned by another company that has wanted to get rid of them for half a decade, but feel free to compare it to others. I'm sure you will find other companies highlight the issue even further.
As others have mentioned under different operators in the same areas, sometimes even operating the exact same bus route, they have a service which they find acceptable. These comparisons are extremely important, as they show this isn't an issue with authority, bus priority, waiting conditions, patronage, profit, or anything along those lines. It's vision.
I would love to find out the mentality behind this kind of decision making over at first group because it is quite simply fascinating for a company that claims to be about growth.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Nights out don’t seem to be as popular as they once were, the night time economy in Bradford is awful, the city is deserted besides dodgy characters post 6pm.

I don’t think that’s true. The night time element has moved to Sunbridgewells and North Parade, but it’s still there. The cinema and restaurants on Vicar Lane are popular. Same in Halifax, even in midweek there are plenty of people in the Broad Street complex.

But First’s last bus to Queensbury is 2203, First’s last bus to Elland is 2234, and First’s last bus to Illingworth is 2220. You can’t even go to the pictures and still get the last bus. And if you can’t get the bus home you don’t get the day ticket for the bus into town, you get taxis both ways.

 

[AndyHudds]

I’m guessing the night time volume just isn’t there, particularly since COVID

Yes people will point at the occasional evening football match, or theatre trips, Friday/Saturday nights out, occasional meals out etc but they are not every day all year round

Nights out don’t seem to be as popular as they once were, the night time economy in Bradford is awful, the city is deserted besides dodgy characters post 6pm.

I suppose you need to ask how many are travelling from Halifax to Bradford to justify what people are wanting - buses every 30 mins all evening 7 days a week 52 weeks a year until past 11pm. If franchising introduces such a service, how long do they run it if the passenger numbers don’t pick up?

Passengers won't come back overnight will they though? A lot of damage has been done to the network by commercial operators seeking profits and prioritising shareholders over any cohesive network that offers a reliable service from 5am to 11/12pm. The franchising system is going to have to work damn hard to get trust and public confidence back in services outside core hours that's for sure but it can be done.