First and Last trains

[yorksrob]

I was wondering if anybody knew how first and last passenger trains of the day were specified in the franchising system and who ultimately had the last say. Bearing in mind the truly abysmal lack of some evening services in my area (west Yorks), I was wondering how much influence (if any) the PTE's actually had on this and whether they should be given more, or whether they could generally run later trains but just didn't want to pay.

Alternatively, is it all decided centrally with the ruling class in London deciding when the provinces should shut down, or would Network Rail put the Kybosh on it all anyway.

 

[Invincibles]

Good question because the ones I use the most, Preston - Manchester (Blackpool - Manchester Airport) and Sheffield - Manchester (Sheffield - Manchester Airport) have got further and further apart over the years. Until about December 2007 there were trains at 0013, 0147 and 0347 from Sheffield and a 0130 and 0330 from Preston. Now those have gone to be replaced simply with one at about 0400 on both routes. This has been very frustrating but understandable given I was often one of a handful of passengers on each.

 

[142094]

AFAIK PTEs such as Metro and Nexus will fund certain services, I'm guessing some of the late night York - Leeds trains will be part funded to give stations from Micklefield a later service. How much subsidy and what other routes I don't know. Nexus subsidise the Sunderland - MetroCentre line and would have paid for later trains when Newcastle - Sunderland was run as heavy rail, but since the Metro took over there would be no reason to fund later services.

 

[eddie62]

TOCs ae only interested in running teh heavily loaded rush hour services. Early and late trains don't make money and have extra problems like security on trains and at stations and of course eating into the maintenance time for track and stock. Government or PTE money is needed for these trains so it becomes a political issue.

 

[AlexS]

Not quite sure, but my last train of the day is run by the 'fast' TOC (ATW) in each direction rather than the normal 'slow' TOC (LM).

 

[rail-britain]

The service level commitment (SLC) is defined in the franchise terms
This varies depending on franchise and what terms were agreed

Details for most :
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/passenger/publicregister/current/

 

[yorksrob]

Many thanks for your answers. Has anybody on here ever tried to influence franchise SLA's and if so have you had any success?

 

[rail-britain]

Many thanks for your answers. Has anybody on here ever tried to influence franchise SLA's and if so have you had any success?

I assume you mean SLC

I am involved with the Regional Transport Partnerships in Scotland and am appointed (by one of the main transport companies in Scotland) as an observer on the board of each with regard to rail services
I attend meetings with the relevant RTP

I can then advise if I note issues which that transport company may want to raise or have concerns about issues raised at monthly meetings
Equally, I have also raised points about things I may notice where the board members do not have such experience (such as the difference between different types of rolling stocks, station facilities, etc)

Thankfully very little discussion occurs about SLC in Scotland
The only recent one was with SPT and SESTRANS for the concerns over the withdrawal of East Coast, but once confirmed the service level would be retained by XC the issue was closed
Last week I attended the HiTrans monthly meeting which was the final one before the Highland Mainline project commences and so that a replacement timetable can be committed to, again there are no concerns over SLC as the number of services actually increases

 

[merlodlliw]

Following the All Wales Franchise being set up, we have gained from this, the last train out of Wrexham is well past midnight and the first is 0530.

On the coast Rhyl for example as its last train after 1.00a.m. and its first after 4.00a.m.
Chester Manchester sees more later & earlier starts, due to Chester being the key service garage for 175s.

Input in Wales comes from the local govt consortia, North Wales as one with two reps(Cllrs) from the six Nth Wales County Borough Councils,this feeds into
WAG. Top of the agenda is the chronic overcrowding on DMUs, which sees hundreds of thousands of extra visitors a week in North Wales trying to use
winter diagrammed two coach 158s, this becomes farce.

Chester now as an hourly London Service by VT, Wrexham have the W/S to London.

 

[rail-britain]

Following the All Wales Franchise being set up

I didn't realise Wales had such a setup, from what I can see Wales is still served by five franchises under the control of DfT
It would therefore simply be consultation to the DfT rather than direct control

 

[merlodlliw]

I didn't realise Wales had such a setup, from what I can see Wales is still served by five franchises under the control of DfT
It would therefore simply be consultation to the DfT rather than direct control

The all Wales franchise current holder is Arriva Trains Wales, the Managers in
Cardiff have frequent meetings with Ieuan Wynn Jones Minister in Charge of railways in Wales. This franchise is part under control of the DFT with WAG.

FGW & VT come under direct control of DFT as does W/S(open Access)

The decision to run the WAG express premier service was a direct decision of WAG who pay for it to be run by ATW.

My understanding of the All Wales franchise, up in a very few years time, is WAG will have the major say who runs it,unlike 8/9 years ago when it was imposed by DFT
without any consultation whatsoever, what a dogs breakfast that was.

 

[Greenback]

Yes, my understainding is that London devolved the responsibility for the Wales franchise to Cardiff, although this happened after the Dft had drawn up the franchise agreement.

 

[Flying Snail]

Following the All Wales Franchise being set up, we have gained from this, the last train out of Wrexham is well past midnight and the first is 0530.

On the coast Rhyl for example as its last train after 1.00a.m. and its first after 4.00a.m.

Not everyone has gained though. Through ship passengers have been left out in the cold (metaphorically and literally) at Holyhead by the TOCs and WAG.

For some years now the last service has been intentionally timetabled to miss the connection with the overnight Irish Ferries sailing, scheduled to arrive 25 mns before the ferry departs (Min check-in is 30mns). This means that despite all the WCML improvements the latest departure from London for the connection is at 20.10 into an all-stops from Chester and a long wait at HellHead. Previously a 21.30 from Euston was the connection.

Now they have done even worse for connections in the other direction, what had already been a long wait of over 90mns for the 02.15 train is now a 4 hour+ wait for the 04.25 or 04.50 departures and an earliest arrival into London 90 mns later right into the peak at 08.40 rather than the more useful 07.10 arrival previously available via Birmingham.

 

[yorksrob]

I feel I might be on a hiding to nowhere as ideally I'm looking to change the status quo rather than preserve it. Still, it might be worth writing to someone!

 

[Greenback]

Not everyone has gained though. Through ship passengers have been left out in the cold (metaphorically and literally) at Holyhead by the TOCs and WAG.

For some years now the last service has been intentionally timetabled to miss the connection with the overnight Irish Ferries sailing, scheduled to arrive 25 mns before the ferry departs (Min check-in is 30mns). This means that despite all the WCML improvements the latest departure from London for the connection is at 20.10 into an all-stops from Chester and a long wait at HellHead. Previously a 21.30 from Euston was the connection.

Now they have done even worse for connections in the other direction, what had already been a long wait of over 90mns for the 02.15 train is now a 4 hour+ wait for the 04.25 or 04.50 departures and an earliest arrival into London 90 mns later right into the peak at 08.40 rather than the more useful 07.10 arrival previously available via Birmingham.

Though I would personally love to see better conenctions at Holyhead, the numbers of foot passengers travelling by rail and sea has declined massively in the last decade. At least the conenctions at Fishguard are still quite good, despite the reduction in quality from the HST's of 2000 to 153's and 150's today!

 

[rail-britain]

I feel I might be on a hiding to nowhere as ideally I'm looking to change the status quo rather than preserve it. Still, it might be worth writing to someone!

If it is the local (regional) franchise you want to see "changed", then start off with your MP
You should also contact Passenger Focus
Finally, DfT to see what they plan for the franchise in the future

 

[merlodlliw]

Not everyone has gained though. Through ship passengers have been left out in the cold (metaphorically and literally) at Holyhead by the TOCs and WAG.

For some years now the last service has been intentionally timetabled to miss the connection with the overnight Irish Ferries sailing, scheduled to arrive 25 mns before the ferry departs (Min check-in is 30mns). This means that despite all the WCML improvements the latest departure from London for the connection is at 20.10 into an all-stops from Chester and a long wait at HellHead. Previously a 21.30 from Euston was the connection.

Now they have done even worse for connections in the other direction, what had already been a long wait of over 90mns for the 02.15 train is now a 4 hour+ wait for the 04.25 or 04.50 departures and an earliest arrival into London 90 mns later right into the peak at 08.40 rather than the more useful 07.10 arrival previously available via Birmingham.

As for Holyhead I agree with you, however ATW imply the last train into Holyhead is a connection for the ferry, this train returns from Birmingham
and originates in Holyhead, the Saturday night variant is a total waste for anyone going to Ireland, bus from the Junction stop everywhere.

As for the Up it was ATW who ran a 2.15a.m. to Crewe then Vt took it over
running to Birmingham, due to unfortunate few numbers using this train, VT looked for an excuse to stop running it, instead it runs at 4.25 to London,VT would say it gets to London after 8.00a.m. but that leaves foot passengers four hours at Holyhead(a graveyard with lights).

If the last down does not connect with the ferry, then it is a total waste I will ask a Manager at ATW I know, is this the case.

As Greenback says, foot passengers overnight have reduced, whereas a lot of tourists do the day trip both ways, On Sunday for example one can catch the
0630 Chester to Holyhead(summer only) & return on the Sundays only late service departing Holyhead 2150 to Chester(all year). Air of course is also cheap.

Interesting Bus Eireann run a service via Holyhead below
http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/coach/holyhead-dublin/

All a sad reflection of the old days of the 60s/70s with two sailings in 24 hours with connecting trains,I recall relief's running off the midnight arrival,now we have up to eight sailings in 24 hours.

 

[142094]

The problem with late night trains is the type of people who usually frequent them - drunks, idiots and tramps. I've used the later night TPE services across the Pennines a few times and they haven't been well used, but normally have a few p***-heads on them and those going back after late night gigs. Never really seen anyone who looked like they were going on holiday - so I wonder how TPE make their money on these services.

A 24hr railway would be great, a bit like the New York Subway, but it is a long way off. In some places we can't even get the daytime railway right.

 

[Drsatan]

A 24hr railway would be great, a bit like the New York Subway, but it is a long way off. In some places we can't even get the daytime railway right.

One problem with trying to operate a 24 hour railway is that railway lines have to be shut for maintenance; most maintenance work as we know is done after the last train has left or on weekend or bank holiday closures. Single line working is only possible when track staff are trained for single line working and when there are crossovers in the right place to permit it. I recall reading in RAIL a couple of years ago that a company had designed a temporary crossover to allow single line working - what happened to that?

The subway can operate 24 hours a day because most subway lines have four tracks (two fast, two slow); hence trains can operate on the slow lines when the fast lines are shut for maintenance and vice versa.

 

[yorksrob]

Well yes, to be honest, I think a 24 hour railway would be optimistic, certainly at the moment, but extending the last trains from around 10:30pm as it is to around 12:00pm might be more feasible - certainly the 10:30 I catch is often fairly busy - particularly on weekends. I know with the night time TPE's you tend to have a big gap until around 2am which might explain the lighter loadings.

 

[tbtc]

I've used the later night TPE services across the Pennines a few times and they haven't been well used, ... Never really seen anyone who looked like they were going on holiday - so I wonder how TPE make their money on these services.

I've used the Sheffield - Manchester Airport service a few times for holidays. A great service, but a 153 would still have plenty of space - in a logical world TPE could borrow one in the evenings - for example take the 153 that has worked the Barton on Humber branch that day, run it in the evening from Grimsby to Manchester Airport, back to Sheffield in the very early hours of the morning, swap it with a "fresh" 153 in the middle of the night at Sheffield, run it from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, then Manchester Airport- Grimsby, and its then free to run on the following day's Barton service...

 

[northwichcat]

I was wondering if anybody knew how first and last passenger trains of the day were specified in the franchising system and who ultimately had the last say.

Northern's in the South Manchester group have been revised to allow Virgin to run more services by letting Northern run less. When the changes were made the ORR published documents saying how many trains Northern have to run on particular services and how many minutes off-pattern they are allowed to run trains e.g. at Manchester Piccadilly for Manchester to Chester via Altrincham the pattern goes 16:17, 17:09, 18:17 - the 17:09 being off-pattern because 17:17 path is needed for a Stoke service.

 

[142094]

One problem with trying to operate a 24 hour railway is that railway lines have to be shut for maintenance; most maintenance work as we know is done after the last train has left or on weekend or bank holiday closures. Single line working is only possible when track staff are trained for single line working and when there are crossovers in the right place to permit it. I recall reading in RAIL a couple of years ago that a company had designed a temporary crossover to allow single line working - what happened to that?

True, probably best to sort of the day time railway than going for 24 hours, in an ideal world maintenance could be worked around late night services, as you say closing only one line and using the other would allow this, but the will does not seem to be there to get this to happen.

I've used the Sheffield - Manchester Airport service a few times for holidays. A great service, but a 153 would still have plenty of space - in a logical world TPE could borrow one in the evenings - for example take the 153 that has worked the Barton on Humber branch that day, run it in the evening from Grimsby to Manchester Airport, back to Sheffield in the very early hours of the morning, swap it with a "fresh" 153 in the middle of the night at Sheffield, run it from Sheffield to Manchester Airport, then Manchester Airport- Grimsby, and its then free to run on the following day's Barton service...

Completely agree here, the ones I've been on everyone could have fit into one carriage of a 185. Not sure why they don't just use a 170 on the York - Man Air services during the night, unless there is a problem with the drivers route knowledge or signing a 170.

yorksrob Well yes, to be honest, I think a 24 hour railway would be optimistic, certainly at the moment, but extending the last trains from around 10:30pm as it is to around 12:00pm might be more feasible - certainly the 10:30 I catch is often fairly busy - particularly on weekends. I know with the night time TPE's you tend to have a big gap until around 2am which might explain the lighter loadings.

Thankfully here in Newcastle the Metro runs quite late, but most of the service terminate short of places such as the Airport and even the city centre, with the last trains terminating at Manors to get back to the depot. Judging by the amount of taxis in town after 12 even a service every 20 minutes would be used well, plus it could just be a single car which they have used previously on Sundays. However I've been told by Nexus that 24 hours wouldn't be feasible, again due to maintenance.

 

[Flying Snail]

As for Holyhead I agree with you, however ATW imply the last train into Holyhead is a connection for the ferry, this train returns from Birmingham
and originates in Holyhead, the Saturday night variant is a total waste for anyone going to Ireland, bus from the Junction stop everywhere.

It is not a connection and has not been for some years. I had a quick look at some old timetables and it seems to have been altered to give less than a 30min connection around 2005 before ATW took over.

Until 2009 this was an artificial mis-connection as it used to be given 45-50 minutes from Bangor to Holyhead so in reality would often arrive with enough time for passengers to make the 30min check-in deadline of 02.10.

As for the Up it was ATW who ran a 2.15a.m. to Crewe then Vt took it over
running to Birmingham, due to unfortunate few numbers using this train, VT looked for an excuse to stop running it, instead it runs at 4.25 to London,VT would say it gets to London after 8.00a.m. but that leaves foot passengers four hours at Holyhead(a graveyard with lights).

Yes the numbers are a shadow of the heyday of ship-rail travel but from my experience in the last 10 years or so they haven't changed that much, the cheap flight revolution had already taken most of the traffic and what was left was a small but constant flow of overnight foot passengers.

You would usually see 1 or 2 transfer buses taking the passengers off the Irish Ferries ship so depending on the day 40-100 passengers for the early train. A small number certainly but a hell of a lot more than on countless other services that have not been removed.

If the last down does not connect with the ferry, then it is a total waste I will ask a Manager at ATW I know, is this the case.

I would be interested to hear the official position on this from ATW but as far as Irish Ferries are concerned it does not connect, their on-line and printed timetables have made this clear for some time now. Take a look at their online timetable and you will see the note specifically noting the 00.53 arrival as the connection. http://www.irishferries.com/fares-offers-britain-from-ireland.asp?tab=fares-sail

Interesting Bus Eireann run a service via Holyhead below
http://www.stenaline.co.uk/ferry/coach/holyhead-dublin/

I am well aware of that as I work for them.

I suppose I should really thank the rail companies for making their product as unatractive as possible, spending 4 hours on a freezing night at Holyhead station has convinced plenty of passengers to use our service instead.

All a sad reflection of the old days of the 60s/70s with two sailings in 24 hours with connecting trains,I recall relief's running off the midnight arrival,now we have up to eight sailings in 24 hours.

When the HSS was running 4-5 return sailings in the late 90's there was a much better spread of sailings than there is now. Much of the current sailings are close together or do not take foot passengers.