First Advance question

[IanXC]

Kind of occurred to me the other day, might sound silly but, if I purchase an (eg) "EC and Connections" first advance ticket, does it entitle me to travel in First Class where provided on the connections?

Also, recently I had a First Advance which was EC&Connections, and was specified to be EC and Northern, if I missed the Northern connection, am I entitled to travel in First Class when told to take the next eg Hull Trains service?

thanks

 

[voyagerdude220]

From one Ian to another Ian ..

1) I can give a definate yes to this, as long as the connection service conveys FC of course.

2) If you've missed a legitimate connection, then i'd once again say yes with certainty, however, i think this is where a slight complication occurs, towards whether you could do so regardless of whether you'd missed your "suggested" service or not. (I'm referring to when a First Advance comprises of two legs, with one leg being on an unreservable service, where other services on the second leg offering reservations.)

 

[yorkie]

A first class ticket is valid in First class accommodation, where available.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

however, i think this is where a slight complication occurs, towards whether you could do so regardless of whether you'd missed your "suggested" service or not. (I'm referring to when a First Advance comprises of two legs, with one leg being on an unreservable service, where other services on the second leg offering reservations.)

If you are valid on the train, then clearly you are valid in First Class as it's a First Class ticket! The matter of whether or not you have to travel on "suggested" trains has been debated extensively in many topics on this forum, including very recently, and my position remains the same.

 

[John @ home]

am I entitled to travel in First Class when told to take the next eg Hull Trains service?

Yes.

Indeed, the rules can be read to imply that you are only allowed to travel in First Class, where provided.

Where applicable, you must travel in the Class and reserved seat(s) shown on the ticket(s).

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

 

[voyagerdude220]

The matter of whether or not you have to travel on "suggested" trains has been debated extensively in many topics on this forum, including very recently, and my position remains the same.

Yeah that's what I was referring to- the fact that I believe some TMs etc would see the ticket as being invalid, if you didn't hold a reservation with an Advance First ticket, on a reservable service.

I personally feel that TOCs haven't a leg to stand on if they try to charge a passenger for a new ticket in this scenario, as there's a big difference between a "suggested" service and a "mandatory" etc service.

 

[yorkie]

Yeah that's what I was referring to- the fact that I believe some TMs etc would see the ticket as being invalid, if you didn't hold a reservation with an Advance First ticket, on a reservable service.

I personally feel that TOCs haven't a leg to stand on if they try to charge a passenger for a new ticket in this scenario, as there's a big difference between a "suggested" service and a "mandatory" etc service.

But this is not applicable to this topic; it's not a First Class issue. If the ticket is valid, then it's valid in the appropriate class. The issue of validity of Advance tickets on suggested services is one that has been debated in numerous other topics, and I do not wish to have another topic on that subject I don't wish to stifle debate though and if there are any more posts about validity issues on suggested services, I will merge them into a topic where that specific issue can be discussed.

It's a completely separate issue.

However, I am in complete agreement with you.

 

[googolplex]

Most of my journeys are from St Neots to Dundee on "EC & Connections" first advance tickets, and I'll pretty much always sit in first class on the FCC leg from St Neots to Peterborough as well as the leg from Peterborough to Dundee.

However I have found I forget to sit in first class if travelling via London, as I'll typically be travelling on FCC's Thameslink route. I did once get a funny look from an RPI who was gripping that train, but no comment was made.

 

[Ivo]

In my experience NXEA dont seem to like 1st Advances on anything other than London to Norwich. For example, I once had a telling off from an employee at Southend Vic for sitting in First Class on a 321 that wasn't due out for a few minutes for not having a First Class ticket. Guess what I had? First Class Advance, SOV-BTH. Meanwhile, he was sitting with a colleague (with whom I had quite an interesting conversation about speed limits, including my learning of the 30 speed limit through Billericay), and neither was an RPI. The former (the one who had a go at me) said something like "they will do you for it".

This isn't an isolated example either, and this is made worse by NXEA 321s having what is surely the worst First Class in the country!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Also, recently I had a First Advance which was EC&Connections, and was specified to be EC and Northern, if I missed the Northern connection, am I entitled to travel in First Class when told to take the next eg Hull Trains service?

....The matter of whether or not you have to travel on "suggested" trains has been debated extensively in many topics on this forum, including very recently, and my position remains the same.

Yeah that's what I was referring to- the fact that I believe some TMs etc would see the ticket as being invalid, if you didn't hold a reservation with an Advance First ticket, on a reservable service.

I personally feel that TOCs haven't a leg to stand on if they try to charge a passenger for a new ticket in this scenario, as there's a big difference between a "suggested" service and a "mandatory" etc service.

If the ticket has '& connnections' in the route (e.g. 'EC & Connections') it is valid on any service that connects with the stated operators service, that you are booked on, provided it can be shown on a valid travel itinerary.

So if the Hull trains service has a sufficiant connection time it is fine. if it misses the booked service it is not fine.

Oh, and yes, it is valid in first class.

 

[premier01]

If the ticket has '& connnections' in the route (e.g. 'EC & Connections') it is valid on any service that connects with the stated operators service, that you are booked on, provided it can be shown on a valid travel itinerary.

So if the Hull trains service has a sufficiant connection time it is fine. if it misses the booked service it is not fine.

Oh, and yes, it is valid in first class.

What would be an appropiate connection time then-if u had the same ticket to Dundee as in original post and EC train from Peterborough was at 10 am-what connection would be valid-would a train that got you in at say 8.30 be valid or would this be too early for connecting to next train-of course would need to be same day.

 

[yorkie]

What would be an appropiate connection time then-if u had the same ticket to Dundee as in original post and EC train from Peterborough was at 10 am-what connection would be valid-would a train that got you in at say 8.30 be valid or would this be too early for connecting to next train-of course would need to be same day.

'Appropriate' is not defined. But as HHF says, if the train misses the connection then it can be argued that there is no way it can be considered appropriate, therefore invalid. e.g. customer booked on 1000 from King's Cross, on a ticket from East Croydon, departing East Croydon at 1000, that's obviously indicating that they are not complying with the ticket as it is impossible for them to be on their booked train (although it could be argued that really the customer should be allowed to interact with the relevant TOC at King's Cross to make their case and plead to be allowed to travel, and in reality the customer is not likely to be asked for their reservation before reaching King's Cross anyway)

 

[lyesbkz]

Indeed, the rules can be read to imply that you are only allowed to travel in First Class, where provided.

Sorry to go off-topic, but in reality would any guard be likely to actually mind if a 1st Advance ticket holder was travelling in Standard?

 

[premier01]

'Appropriate' is not defined. But as HHF says, if the train misses the connection then it can be argued that there is no way it can be considered appropriate, therefore invalid. e.g. customer booked on 1000 from King's Cross, on a ticket from East Croydon, departing East Croydon at 1000, that's obviously indicating that they are not complying with the ticket as it is impossible for them to be on their booked train (although it could be argued that really the customer should be allowed to interact with the relevant TOC at King's Cross to make their case and plead to be allowed to travel, and in reality the customer is not likely to be asked for their reservation before reaching King's Cross anyway)

I can understand logic there but as you say could be argued against in some ways-was thinking that some guards would challenge people travelling early though-especially if it meant having a break of journey in say London perhaps even for a few hours.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sorry to go off-topic, but in reality would any guard be likely to actually mind if a 1st Advance ticket holder was travelling in Standard?

It could happen-what about using a FOR or FOS ticket and sitting in standard-is that allowed-have done that before when colleague travelling on standard ticket but guard had no problem with that.

 

[googolplex]

When I travel through London I'll typically get a train earlier than the advised one. I do this as on occasion it's been tight crossing London in the allocated time and I like the opportunity to grab something to eat on my journey.
I don't travel much earlier, it's usually within an hour of the advised service.

The only time I encountered revenue staff on the journey into London (and got the funny look), I didn't show my reservation coupon and nothing was said about my onward journey from London.

Regarding sitting in standard, I've never had any issues on a first advance (even though I've only had my ticket checked once), and presumably it would be the same on an FOR or FOS. If they did want to do anything, I don't think they'd get very far with a claim when it came to light that you paid twice the price you should have done to travel in standard class.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What would be an appropiate connection time then-if u had the same ticket to Dundee as in original post and EC train from Peterborough was at 10 am-what connection would be valid-would a train that got you in at say 8.30 be valid or would this be too early for connecting to next train-of course would need to be same day.

As Yorkie says, it isn't defined as such, but as the conditions states "connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary" I would suggest the minimum time for the connection would be the suggest minimum connection time for the station concerned, as most, if not all, travel itineraries would allow this as a minimum.

As for how early you could use it, well I would suggest that would vary by service frquency, minimum suggested connection time, walking time between stations (if appropriate) and allowances for passengers with disabilities or mobility issues.

 

[wellhouse]

On occasion, I have had a seat reservation for the connecting service on an EC First Advance Ticket.

Booking from London to Huddersfield, Advance Tickets usually route Kings Cross - Wakefield Westgate, then Wakefield Westgate - Huddersfield by Northern (standard class only, no reservations). Sometimes the route is Kings Cross - Leeds, then Leeds - Huddersfield by TPE. There is then a separate First Class seat reservation for the TPE service.

When the London service runs late, Huddersfield passengers are advised to remain on board to make a connection at Leeds. I have never been asked by a TPE gripper to show my seat reservation, either when booked on that service, or when the EC service has missed the Wakefield connection.