Firefighting unit on heritage railways

[Egg Centric]

There's a thread on the hertiage section about the increasing risks caused by dryness.

"Thinking outside the firebox" - what's to stop a simple firefighting unit that keeps then under control? I don't see why the vast majority of these fires, if caught quickly, can't be fought with a couple of hosepipes and a few thousand gallons of water. This is surely acheivable with a pacer (or shortly a 15x) bought for buttons, a huge tank for a couple of grand, a pump and a few hoses. You could even paint it red and put blue flashing lights on it, but this is optional.

It doesn't have to be great or a comprehensive solution - let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good here or try to engineer something fantastic - it just has to do the job 80% of the time and the current solution (presumably the firebrigade) can deal with the rest of it.

What say ye?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Aug 2025 ==

Edit: On googling it, turns out these already exist in other countries. So I'm not out of my mind!

 

[JonathanH]

This is surely acheivable with a pacer (or shortly a 15x) bought for buttons, a huge tank for a couple of grand, a pump and a few hoses. You could even paint it red and put blue flashing lights on it, but this is optional.

The line capacity for a second firefighting train doesn't really exist on single track lines with mechanical signalling. Better would be a dedicated wagon on the end of the train causing the fire.

 

[Halifaxlad]

Don't forget you need someone to drive it and be trained and competent to do so, plus be available at the time which is harder when your relying on volunteers.

 

[Egg Centric]

The line capacity for a second firefighting train doesn't really exist on single track lines with mechanical signalling. Better would be a dedicated wagon on the end of the train causing the fire.

Having never seen one - how quick do these fires happen? I assumed they'd take 10 or 20 minutes to take hold. If they only take a few seconds then absolutely something on the train itself makes sense.

I think it should be reasonably easy to come up with a method of working on most relevant lines where there are one or two trains in steam (excluding galas) that acheived an "all stop", with the fire train to be subsequently driven on sight.

(Let's face it on many of these lines all trains could be driven on sight all the time, perhaps with some modest limit reductions in places)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Aug 2025 ==

Don't forget you need someone to drive it and be trained and competent to do so, plus be available at the time which is harder when your relying on volunteers.

Sure - I'm proposing this as an alternative to the even more depressing sounding alternatives in the other thread

 

[martin butler]

As a former footplateman, Crews won't see the fire their loco has just started, as they are already well past the point of impact, its often the next train, either up, or down that spots the fire, and often if its in the cess, a burst from the pep pipe, or a couple of bashes from the shovel, and it's out, that's of course assuming there is a another train with in a short time, the best way to prevent fires is proper management of dampers, and if fitted the mesh guards, to stop ashes from falling, and cleaning the ashpan when you have the opportunity to rake it through,

 

[BerkshireRails]

Having never seen one - how quick do these fires happen? I assumed they'd take 10 or 20 minutes to take hold. If they only take a few seconds then absolutely something on the train itself makes sense.

I think it should be reasonably easy to come up with a method of working on most relevant lines where there are one or two trains in steam (excluding galas) that acheived an "all stop", with the fire train to be subsequently driven on sight.

That won't work as the signals are interlocked to prevent two trains on the same section of line, the preferred option by heritage railways is to use a modified road vehicle which chases the train in the cess. There is some clips of this on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway documentary. Even at 10mph it can take a train 200m to stop according to the Rail Standards & Safety Board

 

[Egg Centric]

That won't work as the signals are interlocked to prevent two trains on the same section of line, the preferred option by heritage railways is to use a modified road vehicle which chases the train in the cess. There is some clips of this on the North Yorkshire Moors Railway documentary. Even at 10mph it can take a train 200m to stop according to the Rail Standards & Safety Board

If there's already a solution (to lineside fires) then I don't see why they should be such a problem, tbh? I'd assumed a non rail vehicle wasn't practical. Have you got a link to the documentary you're referring to?

 

[Ashley Hill]

The SDR have an old petrol tank wagon and a flat wagon with a pump for tackling line-side fires. Thankfully the National Benzole lettering on the tank has faded. A milk tank is currently being rebuilt to replace the petrol tank.

 

[BerkshireRails]

If there's already a solution (to lineside fires) then I don't see why they should be such a problem, tbh? I'd assumed a non rail vehicle wasn't practical. Have you got a link to the documentary you're referring to?

Yep, I do have a link.

 

[GusB]

The SDR have an old petrol tank wagon and a flat wagon with a pump for tackling line-side fires. Thankfully the National Benzole lettering on the tank has faded. A milk tank is currently being rebuilt to replace the petrol tank.

I can imagine that witnessing the contents of a former petrol tank being pumped onto a fire would probably cause a few palpitations! The milk tank is definitely the more sensible option.

 

[Bald Rick]

what's to stop a simple firefighting unit that keeps then under control? I don't see why the vast majority of these fires, if caught quickly, can't be fought with a couple of hosepipes and a few thousand gallons of water. This is surely acheivable with a pacer (or shortly a 15x) bought for buttons, a huge tank for a couple of grand, a pump and a few hoses.

To put some numbers to it, 5000 gallons of water weighs almost 23 tonnes. Add in the tank itself, pump and other equipment and you’re looking at 30 tonnes loaded. I’m no rolling stock engineer, but I fancy that might be more than enough to snap a pacer or Sprinter.

 

[BerkshireRails]

To put some numbers to it, 5000 gallons of water weighs almost 23 tonnes. Add in the tank itself, pump and other equipment and you’re looking at 30 tonnes loaded. I’m no rolling stock engineer, but I fancy that might be more than enough to snap a pacer or Sprinter.

That would be 3x times the design load if each carriage of a Sprinter or pacer can carry 100 passengers each weighing 100kg to account for luggage.

 

[Egg Centric]

To put some numbers to it, 5000 gallons of water weighs almost 23 tonnes. Add in the tank itself, pump and other equipment and you’re looking at 30 tonnes loaded. I’m no rolling stock engineer, but I fancy that might be more than enough to snap a pacer or Sprinter.

This is something that really surprises me - not that the load was those sorts of figures but that it was a difficulty - so thank you for pointing it out. I just assumed they could take that easily. It's this sort of "killer" real life insight that isn't obvious to a layman but basically kills a layman's schemes dead, so it's very handy to have.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is something that really surprises me - not that the load was those sorts of figures but that it was a difficulty - so thank you for pointing it out. I just assumed they could take that easily. It's this sort of "killer" real life insight that isn't obvious to a layman but basically kills a layman's schemes dead, so it's very handy to have.

Well, it’s only using a dmu as the water carrier that is the issue. Have a dmu pulling a couple of old tanks designed to carry fluids and you can have a couple of hundred tonnes on tap.

 

[CMS1]

Definitely be an attraction if given a fitting paint job (AI will have some ideas), might have to start some fires to keep the children happy!

 

[LowLevel]

Some already have them. The GCR have a CCT fitted with an engine, pump and some large water tanks. It gets attached to service trains.

 

[John Webb]

........ I don't see why the vast majority of these fires, if caught quickly, can't be fought with a couple of hosepipes and a few thousand gallons of water. This is surely acheivable with a pacer (or shortly a 15x) bought for buttons, a huge tank for a couple of grand, a pump and a few hoses.....

To put some numbers to it, 5000 gallons of water weighs almost 23 tonnes. Add in the tank itself, pump and other equipment and you’re looking at 30 tonnes loaded. I’m no rolling stock engineer, but I fancy that might be more than enough to snap a pacer or Sprinter.

For comparison the average road fire appliance carries 400gall/2000 litres of water - some two tons.
But more efficient use of the water has been developed by the use of high-pressure water mist or 'fogging' systems. These produce a spray with many more smaller droplets; this increases the surface area of water presented to the fire and absorbs the heat faster to cool things down. Also the steam produced helps to dilute the oxygen near the fire.
Indeed, the pick-up truck featured in the video linked to in post #9 above carries such equipment. Has the advantage you don't need large diameter hose which is awkward to handle and therefore helps keeps crew numbers needed to a minimum.

 

[BerkshireRails]

For comparison the average road fire appliance carries 400gall/2000 litres of water - some two tons.
But more efficient use of the water has been developed by the use of high-pressure water mist or 'fogging' systems. These produce a spray with many more smaller droplets; this increases the surface area of water presented to the fire and absorbs the heat faster to cool things down. Also the steam produced helps to dilute the oxygen near the fire.
Indeed, the pick-up truck featured in the video linked to in post #9 above carries such equipment. Has the advantage you don't need large diameter hose which is awkward to handle and therefore helps keeps crew numbers needed to a minimum.

However that will only last between 1-15 minutes depending on the equipment being used. Last time I checked there isn't tons of fire hydrants lineside.

 

[JohnElliott]

The Bluebell at various times had a mobile fire train, and later a converted Land Rover that lived in a shed at Horsted Keynes. The coach used in the fire train (LSWR 1520) has now been restored as a conventional passenger coach.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The Gloucester and warwickshire railway used to have a fire department if I remeber correctly.

 

[BlueLeanie]

https://www.rosenbauer.com/fileadmin/_processed_/a/6/csm_rosenbauer_NL_SF_B_0060_5d5ac2005f.jpg

The above image shows a Rosenbauer fire appliance built for Brussels airport. It's built on a MAN chassis and fitted with 540hp engines. On roads, they use 6x6 all-wheel drive and they have deployable rail bogies for use on the tunnel track.

 

[Friary Yard]

The Dartmouth Steam Railway has a fire train

 

[Cowley]

The Dartmouth Steam Railway has a fire train

Which came in useful yesterday.

There’s a video here showing it in action about 7 minutes in:

 

[30907]

Which came in useful yesterday.

There’s a video here showing it in action about 7 minutes in:

Very impressive! No criticism, but the local fire service were there some minutes earlier - with a 25mph speed limit on the railway, not to mention the signalling issues, it's not surprising.

 

[Egg Centric]

Very impressive! No criticism, but the local fire service were there some minutes earlier - with a 25mph speed limit on the railway, not to mention the signalling issues, it's not surprising.

I was pleased it was painted red too. But there's still room for blue lights.

 

[Cowley]

Very impressive! No criticism, but the local fire service were there some minutes earlier - with a 25mph speed limit on the railway, not to mention the signalling issues, it's not surprising.

Yeah. I’m not sure how they (or that bungalow) would have fared if it wasn’t for the local fire brigade?

I was pleased it was painted red too. But there's still room for blue lights.

I left a comment on the video saying than an old school Green Goddess style bell would be a nice addition to the 03.

 

[BerkshireRails]

I think it is better to keep the first response fire fighting to the road vehicles or road rail vehicles for heritage railways.

 

[Belperpete]

The Ffestiniog has a large rail-mounted water tank with a pump from a fire engine. The fire brigade will often request it be sent to site, if there isn't a water source nearby. At other times, it is sent out to spray problem areas before the train, and then to follow it back.

At the GCR reunification gala, the crew of the DMU dealt with a fire left by the steam train that it crossed going the other way. They had a couple of large backpack sprayers, but to be honest the beaters seemed far more effective.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 27 Aug 2025 ==

Recent BBC news item about the Ffestiniog's fire-fighting train:
Trains used as 'fire engines on rails' in hot weather