Turbostar
Member
So, going back to a question, I thought chemicals were banned from the tunnel?
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Fire closes Eurotunnel services
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glynn80
Established Member
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The BBC news is claiming the fire is still burning has anyone else heard the same?
Turbostar
Member
It was mentioned on the BBC 10pm news, also mentioned it wasn't just one truck alight, but had spread to adjacent trucks.
Nym
Established Member
OK, Phenol melts things, and very badly, as in if phenol touches skin, it melts the skin, then the bone, and all you get left at the end of it is some powder, it also burns, Phenol is one of the most dangerous chemicals on this planet!
If it is phenol, and it has egressed from the containers in liquid form, there will be severe damage to tracks, trackside equipment, everything.
btw. It has been known for phenol to melt through certain types of steel!
Also, the vapour is VERY VERY VERY VERY *1000000000 toxic! Therefore crossover useage is dangerous until the vapour is cleared, also on a side note, who will pay the EA for the phenol exposure to the atmosphere on the british end of the tunnel? Eurotunnel? The hauliers?
Crompton Karl
Member
I'm at work now, if i hear any updates other than what you see in the news then i'll post here.
Karl
Karl
Royston Vasey
Established Member
I have a Masters degree in Chemistry and your post is riddled with inaccuracy, so I thought I should add to the debate. Yes phenol is toxic and corrosive but so are a huge array of chemicals in everyday use, in university laboratories, in industry, in the home, in containers on our roads and rails everywhere. It is not "one of the most dangerous chemicals on the planet" and it isn't helpful to suggest it is. I have used far worse in first year university practical sessions.
You say "It melts the skin, it melts the bone" Well, it does burn skin in neat form. But so do loads of things. Household bleach, for instance... Accidental exposure will not vapourise flesh leaving a mysterious powder like you suggest.
Phenol itself, i.e. hydroxybenzene, is a weak acid and is not going to eat through rail tracks (the actual fire damage will be far more serious). Neat acetic acid has a pKa (a logarithmic measure of weak acidity) of 5 and is stored in normal steel drums, phenol has a pKa of 10, therefore is 100,000 times less acidic. For non chemists, pKa works in a similar way as pH, a lower number means it is more acidic.
As for the vapour being "VERY VERY VERY VERY *1000000000 toxic" (whatever that means) I thought I'd help by actually providing the typical maximum (human) exposure limit, quoted on its Material Safety Data Sheet, which is 2 parts per million, i.e. 0.02% in the air. This isn't much (though not extreme for an organic chemical) and yes, the tunnel will have to be monitored until this has been cleared to safe levels. The ventilation systems should do this fairly quickly.
By the way phenol is found in whiskies and is an important flavour component. Bowmore whisky claims to have up to 25ppm phenol in the whisky itself, i.e. 0.25%.
Perhaps I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're on a wind-up, and if so, then your post really isn't helping to inform a fairly serious debate.
All this doesn't mean phenol should be carried through the tunnel however... It is dangerous for human exposure and yes, it is my view that this shouldn't have been allowed near the tunnel.
Can anyone clarify whether this was being shipped through the tunnel against regulations or not?
velaro
Member
Excellent points, Royston. A little niggle: 25ppm = 0.0025%.
German news report that the fire has been extinguished: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,577829,00.html
German news report that the fire has been extinguished: http://www.spiegel.de/reise/aktuell/0,1518,577829,00.html
Royston Vasey
Established Member
Wasn't the last big tunnel fire also a burning HGV? Isn't it time HGVs were banned from this major rail link and sent by HGV-only ferries instead? That would also allow Eurostars to travel faster through the tunnel, as I understand that the slower HGV trains limit Eurstars to 100mph?
CS
CS
Oracle
Established Member
The fires, plural, are evidently not all out. Kent Fire are saying that that's their priority. Of course they mentioned about vehicle tyres on fire, and the smoke produced. Temps of 1000 C were mentioned.
Trouble is you can't ban HGVs as they contribute so much to the costs, economy, et al. However vehicles should not be sent down the tunnel if they have a list of banned types of chemicals on board. That said we don;t know if any chemicals actuall caught fire and it was in fact tyres, canvas, paint, diesel, etc that burned. For 15 hours.
I can see another £XXX million bill and months of repair work!
Trouble is you can't ban HGVs as they contribute so much to the costs, economy, et al. However vehicles should not be sent down the tunnel if they have a list of banned types of chemicals on board. That said we don;t know if any chemicals actuall caught fire and it was in fact tyres, canvas, paint, diesel, etc that burned. For 15 hours.
I can see another £XXX million bill and months of repair work!
will1337
Member
In Eurostar livery :grin:
TheSlash
Established Member
Looks like one hell of a fire if it's still not out.
Does anybody know what use it is in having 100 English Firefighters and 20 appliances on the job? Surely there is only so many hose reels you can fit in a tunnel?
I'm surprise Eurotunnel don't have a fire surpression system to bring into action after the evacuation, such as CO2 discharge {remember your fire fuel triangle people, no air no fire
}
Banning HGVs is not the way forward. Both the money made by Eurotunnel and the physical quantity of units moved through the tunnel mean it wouldn't be practicle.
Does anybody know what use it is in having 100 English Firefighters and 20 appliances on the job? Surely there is only so many hose reels you can fit in a tunnel?
I'm surprise Eurotunnel don't have a fire surpression system to bring into action after the evacuation, such as CO2 discharge {remember your fire fuel triangle people, no air no fire
}Banning HGVs is not the way forward. Both the money made by Eurotunnel and the physical quantity of units moved through the tunnel mean it wouldn't be practicle.
Crompton Karl
Member
Before i went home SNCF were advised that Eurostar and Eurotunnel have advised their customers to seek alternative transport for both Saturday and Sunday, although they expect a skeleton service to run.
Karl
Karl
I noticed that along with it been in Eurostar Colours complete with the Eurostar Logo despite the Fire taking place on a completely different TOC...
westcoaster
Established Member
there was a eurostar in st pancreas about 1600, with cleaners and staff boarding saw two staff with trolley bags board in the middle, anyone know if the service has resumed.
I don't know how exactly the chain of events occurred for it to set fire but have at look at this Airbus A340 Video when it does a RTO (Rejected Take Off) test. The brakes overheat until after a while it sets the tyres on fire. Something similar could of happened such as the lorry been heavy load and the driver really using the brakes hard and the lorry boarded the train at the last minute with overheating brakes, the train departs and then ignites the tyres and then the diesel tank is ignited causing a large fire.
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzWp67PIMw
Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRzWp67PIMw
TheSlash
Established Member
You have to really heat up Diesel before it will burn at atmospheric pressure
Oracle
Established Member
I find it odd that the brakes could have set the cab on fire, especialy as it must have been 20 minutes say after the truck was loaded. I have seen the results of rear brakes on a trailer causing a fire...the whole curtainsider was just burned away...all the load and the sides. The heat even melted the roadway (on the M3 I think it was).
Another cause of truck and bus fires is leaking diesel onto hot manifolds/exhausts. My daughter also reminds about a cigarette butt thrown from a car that landed inside a convertible resulted in an imediate fire. A mum had to rescue her baby from the back.
It will be interesting to read what officials say was the cause and why the heck was phenol carried and not sent by ferry.
Another cause of truck and bus fires is leaking diesel onto hot manifolds/exhausts. My daughter also reminds about a cigarette butt thrown from a car that landed inside a convertible resulted in an imediate fire. A mum had to rescue her baby from the back.
It will be interesting to read what officials say was the cause and why the heck was phenol carried and not sent by ferry.
Royston Vasey
Established Member
C4 news this evening reports that the phenol did not explode (whether it did burn or get released or not I don't know).
Reassuring that any service at all is running by now... are they running bidirectionally in the French third of the affected tunnel then crossing back over?
Reassuring that any service at all is running by now... are they running bidirectionally in the French third of the affected tunnel then crossing back over?
At the present time (22:57) only Eurotunnel are running, and even that is only a very much reduced freight service (possibly to allow phase two of Op Stack be withdrawn asap?). Eurotunnel's tourist services remain suspended, as do Eurostar. As for how services are operating, as I understand it only the South Tunnel is currently open throughout.
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I seem to remember that during previous problems only one tunnel has been used throughout as its not Eurotunnel policy to queue trains underground for the single section. and the damaged tunnel has been required for works trains.
i reckon you can expect to see a reduced eurostar service with longer journey times for some weeks.
i reckon you can expect to see a reduced eurostar service with longer journey times for some weeks.
I'm surprise Eurotunnel don't have a fire surpression system to bring into action after the evacuation, such as CO2 discharge {remember your fire fuel triangle people, no air no fire
Carbon Dioxide is very expensive and there is a lot of volume underground!
Just an update on the aftermath of the fire. The fire is subject to a Judicial Inquiry so Eurotunnel have no access to the site to start removing the train etc. Initial surveys of the damage envisage that both Locos will be repairable but that the rest of the train is a write-off. Around 800 metres of the Tunnel are seriously damaged and its envisaged that repairs will take around 5 months before both tunnels are open again.
Oracle
Established Member
I know Eurotunnel are insured, but their insurers will want to no doubt pursue an indemnity action against the insurers of the lorry that caused the fire, although it could go deeper of course against the load's insurers if different. After the crash caused by the Land-Rover that went off the motorway, the driver's unlucky insurance company apparently set a limit on each claim which I seem to recall was £25 million. That was £5 milion more than a claim by a company a few years ago against Hampshire Fire & Rescue, in the shape of Hampshire County Council over alleged negligence in putting out a fire. The local council taxpayers had to cough up then I believe, and there was no insurance to back up the Fire authority I think.
In the case of the Chunnel fire, I wonder whether the lorry's insurers will be held accountable and then there will be a cap, possibly less than the entire claim? Other vehicles' insurers will want their piece of the action as well. Judging by the last disaster and the remedical works' costs, plus any claims by tunnel users for loss of revenue, someone/some insurers are going to have a big tab to pick up and whom it is will be determined by lawyers who are going to earn a fortune! Yes, I was once one myself but that was a world away.
In the case of the Chunnel fire, I wonder whether the lorry's insurers will be held accountable and then there will be a cap, possibly less than the entire claim? Other vehicles' insurers will want their piece of the action as well. Judging by the last disaster and the remedical works' costs, plus any claims by tunnel users for loss of revenue, someone/some insurers are going to have a big tab to pick up and whom it is will be determined by lawyers who are going to earn a fortune! Yes, I was once one myself but that was a world away.
Seats on flights are in short supply after train services were crippled by last week's fire in the Channel Tunnel.
The reduced train service has enabled airlines to charge premium fares for travel between London and Paris over the next few days.
An economy class return fare to Paris on British Airways could cost as much as £637.20 more than double the airline's cheapest ticket to and from New York.
Air France, meanwhile, has been quoting a return ticket costing as much as £536.20.
Even EasyJet, a budget carrier is offering return fares for as much as £440.30.
The sudden hike in the cost of air travel was described as disappointing by the passenger watchdog group, the Air Transport Users council.
"But I suppose it is the way it works, there is no regulation" a spokesman said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/296...Airlines-raise-price-of-flights-to-Paris.html
The reduced train service has enabled airlines to charge premium fares for travel between London and Paris over the next few days.
An economy class return fare to Paris on British Airways could cost as much as £637.20 more than double the airline's cheapest ticket to and from New York.
Air France, meanwhile, has been quoting a return ticket costing as much as £536.20.
Even EasyJet, a budget carrier is offering return fares for as much as £440.30.
The sudden hike in the cost of air travel was described as disappointing by the passenger watchdog group, the Air Transport Users council.
"But I suppose it is the way it works, there is no regulation" a spokesman said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/296...Airlines-raise-price-of-flights-to-Paris.html
Supply and Demand - its simple business and it will always be the same. Airlines aren't going to play Charity when others fail, certainly not these days.
My mum was flying out to Lanzarote next week but because of the collapse of XL Airways all flights have doubled, even tripled in some cases.
My mum was flying out to Lanzarote next week but because of the collapse of XL Airways all flights have doubled, even tripled in some cases.
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