Fines for boarding a stationary train

[jon0844]

One (quite good) reason why it should be an offence is that people do board trains with the intention of stealing luggage and not travelling.

While terrorists are pretty quiet these days, perhaps because our Government is doing a better job of destroying the country by itself, there is also a potential security risk with getting on and off empty trains for no apparent reason.

Sure, it might be an enthusiast wanting to look at the interior or try out the seats, but I'd expect the best thing to do there is notify/ask someone beforehand - in which case you're now also helping reduce the chance of being fined for being there, as well as acting as an extra set of eyes and ears.

 

[zwk500]

While terrorists are pretty quiet these days, perhaps because our Government is doing a better job of destroying the country by itself, there is also a potential security risk with getting on and off empty trains for no apparent reason.

Sure, it might be an enthusiast wanting to look at the interior or try out the seats, but I'd expect the best thing to do there is notify/ask someone beforehand - in which case you're now also helping reduce the chance of being fined for being there, as well as acting as an extra set of eyes and ears.

This has nothing to do with terrorists. That's a stupid comment. Theft of suitcases from trains does happen, there were incidents at King's Cross quite recently.

The legislation exists and can be used to prevent/deter people from certain actions. However flexibility in the application also exists and so an enthusiast who wishes to see what First Class looks like for booking a ticket to travel later will have nothing to fear.

 

[jon0844]

Of course it's related. Rail staff are considering loads of factors simultaneously.

They can't easily tell an enthusiast, thief, terrorist, or someone just wanting the toilet, apart.

 

[mangyiscute]

Of course it's related. Rail staff are considering loads of factors simultaneously.

They can't easily tell an enthusiast, thief, terrorist, or someone just wanting the toilet, apart.

Well if I board a train and then get off it about 2 minutes later and they come up to me and question me for being a terrorist, I will not be best pleased. If I got off the train and I was carrying a large suitcase, however, then I would think it fair enough for them to question me as a potential thief

 

[Haywain]

Well if I board a train and then get off it about 2 minutes later and they come up to me and question me for being a terrorist, I will not be best pleased.

Best not do that then. It's railway staff who have a responsibility for keeping the railway safe, and if they have doubts they should certainly take steps to clarify the situation. If it's any consolation they won't ask "are you a terrorist?" though.

 

[Darandio]

Well if I board a train and then get off it about 2 minutes later and they come up to me and question me for being a terrorist, I will not be best pleased. If I got off the train and I was carrying a large suitcase, however, then I would think it fair enough for them to question me as a potential thief

Staff need to be on the look out for strange behaviour and will potentially question those displaying it. Boarding trains simply to look around before getting off is pretty strange behaviour.

 

[AM9]

Staff need to be on the look out for strange behaviour and will potentially question those displaying it. Boarding trains simply to look around before getting off is pretty strange behaviour.

... is the right answer! Whilst some posters here dance on the head of a pin dreaming up innocent pursuits that in their view justifies such strange behaviour, anybody exercising what they see as 'their rights' should be aware that they may be severely inconvenienced by a railway employee who may need to be sure that any explanation offered is credible.

 

[Haywain]

they may be severely inconvenienced by a railway employee who may need to be sure that any explanation offered is credible.

Or by the BTP, who may ask rather more questions than railway staff.

 

[some bloke]

It seems sensible for the railway to have broad powers to remove people who appear to staff not to have any good reason to be on a train.

Byelaw 10(3) says,

"No person shall be in or on any train except on the parts of it intended for use by
that person."

It seems to me reasonable to say that the railway does intend some people who are not travelling to "use" a carriage (for example someone helping a passenger with their luggage), but not people who are only inspecting it.


The statement

"a railway may exclude anyone who is not there for the purpose of using the railway"

is from the CPS page linked to above. It does not have a basis in what section 16 of the Act says - which is about wilful trespass.

If the CPS meant it has some other basis, they seem to have omitted that basis, and written something which can easily mislead that the 1840 Act says or implies the statement.

 

[Starmill]

Personally I think that the Byelaw should simply be repealed, in England and Wales the new Penalty Fares will do what needs to be done, and the offences in the Fraud Act and elsewhere are still available if they're needed. Then this silly question would just disappear.

 

[zwk500]

Personally I think that the Byelaw should simply be repealed, in England and Wales the new Penalty Fares will do what needs to be done, and the offences in the Fraud Act and elsewhere are still available if they're needed. Then this silly question would just disappear.

There is an awful lot of sense in this. But then again I think it'd be nice if ALL the byelaws were properly reviewed alongside the fare system and the two rewritten together.

 

[AM9]

Personally I think that the Byelaw should simply be repealed, in England and Wales the new Penalty Fares will do what needs to be done, and the offences in the Fraud Act and elsewhere are still available if they're needed. Then this silly question would just disappear.

I think the silly suggestions of excuses for non-passengers to board a train are drying up now so the thread will fade away soon.

 

[greyman42]

I regularly travel from York to London on the 1158 "fast". If i arrive early i sometimes use the adjacent 1202 "stopper" as a waiting room as it is more comfortable/warmer than the waiting room.

 

[zwk500]

I regularly travel from York to London on the 1158 "fast". If i arrive early i sometimes use the adjacent 1202 "stopper" as a waiting room as it is more comfortable/warmer than the waiting room.

The York Tap is a far more comfortable waiting room!

 

[py_megapixel]

I regularly travel from York to London on the 1158 "fast". If i arrive early i sometimes use the adjacent 1202 "stopper" as a waiting room as it is more comfortable/warmer than the waiting room.

Did you mean to write "sitting on the train is more comfortable/warmer than the waiting room"?

If so, I'd agree with that in general.

 

[Edsmith]

I was at Maidstone East recently and it was a bit of a wait for the next Ashford train from platform 2 and the waiting room was closed for some reason and a staff member advised people to wait on the warm Charing Cross train on platform 3 assuring them that it wouldn't leave before their Ashford train arrived. Was that wrong? Could those people have been given a penalty fare? You would like to think common sense would apply but..............

 

[greyman42]

Did you mean to write "sitting on the train is more comfortable/warmer than the waiting room"?

If so, I'd agree with that in general.

Yes, but the train i sit on is not the one i am travelling on and i don't necessarily have a valid ticket for that train.

 

[py_megapixel]

Yes, but the train i sit on is not the one i am travelling on and i don't necessarily have a valid ticket for that train.

Sorry, misread your previous post. I see what you mean now.

 

[zwk500]

I was at Maidstone East recently and it was a bit of a wait for the next Ashford train from platform 2 and the waiting room was closed for some reason and a staff member advised people to wait on the warm Charing Cross train on platform 3 assuring them that it wouldn't leave before their Ashford train arrived. Was that wrong? Could those people have been given a penalty fare? You would like to think common sense would apply but..............

Fairly sure that's not an offence, because they'd acted as instructed by a member of railway staff.

 

[mangyiscute]

What if there's a train come in that you are on, but you don't have a connecting train for 15 mins and the train you arrived in sits there for 20 minutes - can you stay in your seat until your connection arrives?

 

[AlterEgo]

What if there's a train come in that you are on, but you don't have a connecting train for 15 mins and the train you arrived in sits there for 20 minutes - can you stay in your seat until your connection arrives?

I don’t see why not; the legislation wouldn’t prohibit it. It is the act of boarding that is described in the legislation.

 

[nanstallon]

Some years ago, I was at Glasgow Central in possession of a Strathclyde rover ticket. The train I wanted to travel on wasn't yet in and I boarded a different train (one within the validity of my ticket) to use the toilet for a quick pee. I was told off by a grouchy employee, but not threatened with prosecution.

 

[mangyiscute]

I don’t see why not; the legislation wouldn’t prohibit it. It is the act of boarding that is described in the legislation.

What if you get off, see your train is delayed by 15 mins and then get back on to sit on that train you just got off

 

[AlterEgo]

What if you get off, see your train is delayed by 15 mins and then get back on to sit on that train you just got off

We've reached Peak RailForums. Well done everyone.

 

[Busaholic]

Nobody is going to tell you sticking a whole chicken inside your jacket in the supermarket is forbidden in law, but try getting out of an attempted theft charge by using those actions to show your intent.

Animal cruelty laws?

 

[mangyiscute]

We've reached Peak RailForums. Well done everyone.

I can keep going lol

 

[Runningaround]

So if you arrive at a platform with twenty minutes to go and then buy your ticket ''That's OK'', If you board a train that's sitting there, buy your ticket twenty minutes before departure ''Its an offence''.

 

[MikeWh]

So if you arrive at a platform with twenty minutes to go and then buy your ticket ''That's OK'', If you board a train that's sitting there, buy your ticket twenty minutes before departure ''Its an offence''.

Technically, but you'd never be punished for it because it's perverse.

We've reached Peak RailForums. Well done everyone.

I can keep going lol

No you can't. I think this thread has run it's course.