Fined for Standing?

[route:oxford]

Once again I've found myself on a Voyager service where there are (limited) seats available - yet passengers choose to block the vestibules.

This time the train manager was directing customers to available seats, yet they were ignoring her requests and chose to block the vestibules and prevent the tea-trolley from getting through the train.

Should (or do) train staff have the ability to fine people for standing when there are seats available?*

*Obviously there will always be someone who needs to stand for medical or "medical" reasons, and it's not unreasonable to queue for the lavatory or make your way to the exit shortly before arriving at a station.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Free choice, I tend to stand up, but would move if asked

 

[Flamingo]

I spent a large part of my job this morning arguing with one to$$er that he couldn't stand in the 1st class vestibules, and would have to take himself back to Standard class, or buy a 1st class ticket. There were about 40 empty seats in Std class (and about 30 people standing in the area around the bar).

If I have him tomorrow or Friday, I think it'll be time to get the Revenue or BTP involved, as the level of abuse I got off him was about 8 on a 1 - 10 scale. The funny bit about it was watching him carrying his folding bike, pretending that he couldn't walk as he had a sore leg, stopping every few feet to massage his knee - pathetic idiot!

I then had to deal with a woman sitting in the middle of the corridor with her flask out who complained when I made her stand up that the train was "Dangerously overcrowded". I offered to find her a seat, but she refused as she "couldn't walk through the train".

There is probably something in the railway bylaws about blocking the passages through the train, but like most of the bylaws, they are for all intents and purposes unenforced.

 

[caliwag]

Ha...you're obviously in the South Flamingo...people in the North respect uniformed authority!!

 

[me123]

Should (or do) train staff have the ability to fine people for standing when there are seats available?*

Not unless they're blocking the entrances to the train.

On one occasion (pretty bad overcrowding), I saw people struggle to get on a train. Everyone crammed into the vestibules. Not only were there seats available in my carriage (albeit "middle" seats in a 3+2 arrangement), there was plenty of room to move down the aisles.

In that case, then yes. But if people want to stand (and I've often seen people stand when they're only going one or two stops), I don't see a problem.

 

[Ferret]

There is probably something in the railway bylaws about blocking the passages through the train, but like most of the bylaws, they are for all intents and purposes unenforced.

There's a requirement to follow reasonable instructions of traincrew......

 

[yorkie]

Go to Leeds at about 1710, there's a train to Manchester (from York) that is packed like sardines at the front, but you can easily get a TABLE to yourself at the rear. Seriously. Perhaps kwvr45 can confirm if this is a regular or a one-off when I saw it?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That's a good point yorkie, you always see stuff like that on VT etc, up to the centre on Pendos, its full and standing, in A & B they'll be room for 20-30 people sta down hock: Suppose people CBA looking through the train though, they just get on and complain

 

[stut]

Same on the peak trains to/from King's Cross. Everybody wants to be at the London end - I usually get a double to myself at the front when it's standing room only in the back four.

That said, sometimes you just want to stand. Particularly when you've been at a job where you've spent the day sat down, and the only seats left are next to overweight iPod-blarers.

 

[me123]

Go to Leeds at about 1710, there's a train to Manchester (from York) that is packed like sardines at the front, but you can easily get a TABLE to yourself at the rear. Seriously. Perhaps kwvr45 can confirm if this is a regular or a one-off when I saw it?

I've been taking the 0822 Airdrie-Milngavie express service the last few days, boarding at Blairhill. Same scenario here on a six car train. In fact, all North Clyde trains are like this to a certain extent. Everyone wants to be at the Helensburgh/Balloch end, whilst the Airdrie end is always much quieter.

Of course, there's a reason for this. The passengers can through the barriers at Queen Street a whole minute earlier if they're at the front of the train! :roll:

 

[tbtc]

To be fair, if you get on a train and see people standing in the vestibule area/ by the doors, a lot of people will assume that there are no spaces further down, so not bother pushing down. Only takes a couple of people to stand near the door to discourage others...

You get int on buses too though, even when seats are clearly free further down - some people would rather stand than have to sit next to a "stranger"

 

[Traveller]

Go to Leeds at about 1710, there's a train to Manchester (from York) that is packed like sardines at the front, but you can easily get a TABLE to yourself at the rear.

Why don't they put the empty coaches on the front, then?

 

[O L Leigh]

Passengers are like cattle. They haven't got the brains to do anything off their own bat or even to follow instructions. I think some of it is a deliberate ploy so that they can feel they have a legitimate reason to moan. They don't move down inside the train and certainly won't walk from one carriage to the next. Passengers really are their own worst enemies.

It boggles my mind sometimes watching trains coming into London each morning. The first two coaches will be absolutely wedged but then the loadings will become progressively lighter until the last two coaches still have upwards of half the seats unoccupied and almost no-one standing.

However, there are legitimate safety concerns when trains start to get really full. If someone tugs a cord between stations in the peak, how is the driver/guard expected to get through to find out what's wrong and deal with the situation? Likewise, doors are not supposed to be blocked. If a cab door lock fails and I can't get from the cab into the train or back again I will fail the entire train because it has obvious safety implications. Having the door obstructed with bags and bodies creates the same result, so why should it be accepted.

O L Leigh

 

[EM2]

On similar lines, why do people insist on wedging themselves onto a train that's already full to the gunwales, when there's another in a few minutes?
Case in point, I went to Forest Gate for the 09:54 to Liverpool Street and when I got there, the 09:44 was due at 09:52 and 09:54 due at 09:56 When the :44 rolled in, it was already full and yet pretty much everyone on the platform piled on. It was *so* packed that a few people risked getting squashed when the doors closed.
Not wishing to put myself through that suffocating torture, I waited for the :54, which rolled in three minutes alter, almost empty

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Go to Leeds at about 1710, there's a train to Manchester (from York) that is packed like sardines at the front, but you can easily get a TABLE to yourself at the rear. Seriously. Perhaps kwvr45 can confirm if this is a regular or a one-off when I saw it?

There are a few trains which are regularly like this. That is one of them. The problem generally lies with the short distance commuters. I regularly have arguments with Garforth commuters who all pile into First Class when it is at the back, who then announce the train is full. It is not. It is full in that coach as no one can be bothered to move down the platform before the train arrives as they will be nearer the exit at Garforth at the back. The front of the train always has plenty of empty seats. There is one in an evening o Liverpool from Manchester which is 6 cars. The front 3 will be rammed to the rafters the back 3 about 1/3 full. This is due to a) folk not walking down the platform despite catching the same train every day. The front is nearer the exit at WAC and LIV. b) those in the front going to LIV will probably not have their open return checked or stamped as the Guard will be in the back. I love jumping in the front at WAC, checking all tickets, then stamping the return portion. The look of horror mixed with "you can't stamp that, I wanted to use that for another week" is quite funny.


It really does annoy me when there is plenty of space further down and folk don't move, thus making one part full and using that as an excuse to go into 1st class or generally moan.

 

[Greenback]

No train crew should not fine people who choose to stand. Can you imagine the abuse they would get? What about freedom of choice?And anyway, only courts can issue fines!!!

On a more general note, I always go to the end of the train which is furthest from the origin station as experience tells me this is likely to be quieter, although the further the train has travelled the less likely this is to be the case.

 

[thefab444]

You get int on buses too though, even when seats are clearly free further down - some people would rather stand than have to sit next to a "stranger"

Indeed, that's why I usually stand even if there are seats "available" (i.e. next to someone or on a table), and I imagine this applies to quite a few other people.

 

[krus_aragon]

On a more general note, I always go to the end of the train which is furthest from the origin station as experience tells me this is likely to be quieter, although the further the train has travelled the less likely this is to be the case.

Or the furthest from the stairs/station entrance!

 

[At_traction]

I spent a large part of my job this morning arguing with one to$$er that he couldn't stand in the 1st class vestibules, and would have to take himself back to Standard class, or buy a 1st class ticket.

Yeah, once been there (but not done the arguing)... As a defence, the Std. end of the HST (Quiet Car) was sealed off due to malfunctioning door locking and the only way to get near the 43 was to sneak into the First Cl. end. I promise I won't transgress again.

On a more general note, I always go to the end of the train which is furthest from the origin station as experience tells me this is likely to be quieter, although the further the train has travelled the less likely this is to be the case.

At (usually terminus) stations with the entrance to the platforms at the station end, that will more often than not be the case, even somewhat understandable, and thus the "loco/driving cab end ploy" works usually well. And it pays off if the exit at the destination happens to be on that end of the train too...

But the problem with these "behavioural dynamics" is indeed the will for most to do as little as possible to spread the congestion (and at the same time make it more comfortable for oneself). A bit like congregating near the exits at the LU - perhaps the most poignant example due to the tourist-heavy parts of the city.