Fined, appealed, won - next stages?

[ticketschaos]

Hello.
I think I already know the answer, but the set of documents received from the Appeals Service is conflicting, but perhaps it's their MO to send both. I was fined for a bizarre incident and appealed it online via the AS portal. I received the attached, which states, "your appeal has been approved and this case is now closed". I assume I have won my appeal, and I no longer liable to pay the fine. Is this correct? I ask the obvious because the second document sent refers to what to do next and it only contains the various way to pay. Thanks in advance.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

Likely you still have the outstanding fare left to pay. What was the reason for originally receiving the Penalty Fare?

The original PF would have been made up of 2 parts;
£100 Penalty (reduced to £50 if paid within 21 days)
£xx.xx unpaid train fare

 

[ticketschaos]

Hi. The original reason was "purchased after departure". It's £4. I assumed that also. However, when I use the link to pay the fee (ircas.co.uk), I get this notice:


They sure don't make it clear what is or is not owed.

 

[MikeWh]

Given that you had already paid the fare I think this is the right outcome. It may be a glitch. Keep the screenshot saying there is nothing to pay.

Out of interest, what was the bizarre incident?

 

[blimmo]

Given that you had already paid the fare I think this is the right outcome.

Since the NRCoT change is this correct? Tickets bought after boarding are not considered valid.

 

[MikeWh]

Since the NRCoT change is this correct? Tickets bought after boarding are not considered valid.

That might depend on the circumstances of the bizarre incident.

 

[AlterEgo]

Since the NRCoT change is this correct? Tickets bought after boarding are not considered valid.

The fare has still been paid and the company has been remunerated for the journey. Nothing else is due.

 

[ticketschaos]

Basically, rushing with two babies to an appointment in town. Arrived late to the station, just got on the train (carrying 4-yr-old and six-month-old), virtually impossible to buy tickets on board. Train arrived at the station (one stop away). Got off, set down one kid, bought a ticket, went up the escalator, toward the gate, scanned ticket, but the ticket lady/inspector called me aside, said, you should have bought this at 12:00 (train departure time), not 12:04 (arrival time at the station). I tried explaining I couldn't, I bought it the when I had the time. Ignored. Fined me. I wrote a more detailed explanation to the AS. Resolved, won. But I'm still unsure if I owe the £4, despite paying £4 originally.

 

[30907]

But I'm still unsure if I owe the £4, despite paying £4 originally.

You don't as per the screenshot.

 

[MikeWh]

But I'm still unsure if I owe the £4, despite paying £4 originally.

The screenshot is pretty clear that nothing is outstanding on that reference. Keep it safe in case they write again, but I don't think they will.

 

[ticketschaos]

Thanks to all. I am thankful for your input.

 

[John R]

Just to make it clear for the future though, (in case you think it’s ok having had the appeal accepted) if there are facilities to purchase a ticket at the station you board, you must purchase a ticket before travelling, except in some very limited circumstances. If you don’t, you commit a criminal offence, and next time you could be referred for prosecution. Not having enough time is not an excuse. And buying a ticket online having boarded is also not permitted, and since November has been explicitly barred in the revised Conditions of Travel.

 

[AdamWW]

And buying a ticket online having boarded is also not permitted, and since November has been explicitly barred in the revised Conditions of Travel.

Since the NRCoT change is this correct? Tickets bought after boarding are not considered valid.

That's not quite what it says.

The new wording is: "in the event that you purchase a Ticket after you board a train ... the Train Company is entitled to treat any such Ticket as an invalid Ticket"

(my bold).

 

[John R]

That's not quite what it says.

The new wording is: "in the event that you purchase a Ticket after you board a train ... the Train Company is entitled to treat any such Ticket as an invalid Ticket"

(my bold).

What exactly is the difference as far as the passenger is concerned, and in particular as far as the advice given? If the TOC is entitled to treat any such ticket as an invalid ticket then from the passenger's perspective they should assume that the TOC will do so, else they may find themselves at the sharp end of a referral for prosecution.

And don't forget, there's a reason why the change has been made...

 

[MarlowDonkey]

That's not quite what it says.

The new wording is: "in the event that you purchase a Ticket after you board a train ... the Train Company is entitled to treat any such Ticket as an invalid Ticket"

(my bold).

There are presumably still services where you are allowed to buy a ticket from a conductor or guard. These would be rural routes or branch lines where no facilities to purchase tickets exist at stations.

 

[AdamWW]

There are presumably still services where you are allowed to buy a ticket from a conductor or guard. These would be rural routes or branch lines where no facilities to purchase tickets exist at stations.

The condition explicitly excludes situations where a ticket doesn't need to be purchased before boarding - and also explicitly mentions tickets bought on a train using an internet service.

And even then, the ticket isn't automatically invalid - the railway just has the option of considering it to be invalid.

Does this matter? Yes, because sometimes TOCs attempt to avoid arguments by claiming that they have no discretion.

 

[John R]

There are presumably still services where you are allowed to buy a ticket from a conductor or guard. These would be rural routes or branch lines where no facilities to purchase tickets exist at stations.

Yes, and that was covered in my post 12 that gave the advice to the OP re buying before boarding in future.

Does this matter? Yes, because sometimes TOCs attempt to avoid arguments by claiming that they have no discretion.

It doesn't matter from the traveller's perspective (and remember this thread, as all those on this board, exists to give advice to the OP). To avoid any risk of prosecution, they must buy before boarding where they can do so.

 

[AdamWW]

Yes, and that was covered in my post 12 that gave the advice to the OP re buying before boarding in future.

It doesn't matter from the traveller's perspective (and remember this thread, as all those on this board, exists to give advice to the OP). To avoid any risk of prosecution, they must buy before boarding where they can do so.

Yes I do recall what the thread is about and I think about what I'm doing before posting, but these threads are of course read by many people including those who aren't in exactly the same situation and I don't think that it is helpful to misrepresent the NRCoT.

 

[Starmill]

It's logically impossible for a ticket to be in some way invalidated simply by buying it after boarding, because elsewhere in the conditions it explains the circumstances you can buy one onboard. The wording of the NRCoT is a mess. Unfortunately that's true of most of it's conditions not just this part.

 

[Chrius56000]

. . .So are all the TOC's going to begin saying every passenger must purchase online in advance even if there is no ticket machine available in working order at the station where the journey is commenced, irrespective of the exemptions allowed for in N.R.C.O.T., and they're giving themselves the right to prosecute ANY passenger, even at a journey starting from an unstaffed station with no T.V.M. or one where the ticket office is only open very short hours, like Newport in Essex where my sister lives?

 

[AlterEgo]

. . .So are all the TOC's going to begin saying every passenger must purchase online in advance even if there is no ticket machine available in working order at the station where the journey is commenced, irrespective of the exemptions allowed for in N.R.C.O.T., and they're giving themselves the right to prosecute ANY passenger, even at a journey starting from an unstaffed station with no T.V.M. or one where the ticket office is only open very short hours, like Newport in Essex where my sister lives?

...no.

See Condition 6.1 https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...2/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2025.pdf

 

[John R]

. . .So are all the TOC's going to begin saying every passenger must purchase online in advance even if there is no ticket machine available in working order at the station where the journey is commenced, irrespective of the exemptions allowed for in N.R.C.O.T., and they're giving themselves the right to prosecute ANY passenger, even at a journey starting from an unstaffed station with no T.V.M. or one where the ticket office is only open very short hours, like Newport in Essex where my sister lives?

No, there is no obligation to buy in advance in those circumstances and nobody has suggested that.

 

[z444z]

. . .So are all the TOC's going to begin saying every passenger must purchase online in advance even if there is no ticket machine available in working order at the station where the journey is commenced, irrespective of the exemptions allowed for in N.R.C.O.T., and they're giving themselves the right to prosecute ANY passenger, even at a journey starting from an unstaffed station with no T.V.M. or one where the ticket office is only open very short hours, like Newport in Essex where my sister lives?

Just adding another no to the chorus.

 

[AdamWW]

. . .So are all the TOC's going to begin saying every passenger must purchase online in advance even if there is no ticket machine available in working order at the station where the journey is commenced, irrespective of the exemptions allowed for in N.R.C.O.T., and they're giving themselves the right to prosecute ANY passenger, even at a journey starting from an unstaffed station with no T.V.M. or one where the ticket office is only open very short hours, like Newport in Essex where my sister lives?

Just adding another no to the chorus.

I think we're going a bit off topic here, but I have seen signs on out of service ticket machines belonging to more than one TOC claiming that passengers must buy their tickets on-line or go and get them from another station (oddly, in some cases where there was a functioning machine nearby...)