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Fined after falling asleep
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Indeed. Though a note for any rookie RPIs out and about for their first few weeks - try and look for the name badge of the person who is slouched asleep and dont listen to your colleagues who egg you on to do this first and foremost to wake me up when on my way home.
This is exactly the sort of comment which makes many TOCs amongst the most despised and loathed corporate organisations in this country. I really hope that you are not staff!
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Sad really that such advice is necessary but it does, in the circumstances seem sensible.
Not sure what your point is, if you were a commuter paying top dollar for a ticket and you had the misfortune to sit next to someone who had been out all night drinking, fallen asleep, missed his stop then expects a free journey home you may well feel like complaining about it which is what happens.
A RPI is quite within his rights to issue a penalty fare in the circumstances of the OP
But surely all you are trying to do is return to your intended destination - not intentionally trying to extract any advantage?
I am an Annual Gold Card-holding London commuter and have no issue with someone who has been overcarried simply wanting to get back to where they originally wanted to go without further penalty
I certainly wouldn't either. I'd feel sorry for the guy because he was going to be late - the last thing on my mind would be to expect him to stump up more money.
And it's not a "free journey home". He's paid to go from A to B, he's just going unintentionally via C.
if the proper procedure is to go to the ticket office if you have fallen asleep on the train then i dont know why train companies dont advertise this. There are lots of people who fall asleep eg after a busy day at work and may miss their stop so i dont know why train companies dont advertise the correct thing to do so as to help people avoid these penalty payments. They are very keen to advertise their twitter accounts and the handful of cheap tickets they offer but not practical info like this .
Flamingo
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The proper procedure is to pay for the journey from where the ticket was last valid and back.
Anything else is at the discretion of staff encountered.
Anything else is at the discretion of staff encountered.
I bet that you would struggle to find a single commuter who would agree with you. Certainly a clear majority would be sympathetic to the person who had missed their stop, because the reality is there are not many commuters who haven't done it, and those that haven't done it, will do it at some stage in their commuting life. This does of course assume that the sleeping drunk has a ticket from the start point to their intended destination, and was not abusive before going to sleep.
Commuters are generally sympathetic of staff seeking to ensure that everyone has a valid ticket, and would have no objection to fare evaders having the book thrown at them. However most would also expect staff to be sympathetic to those that genuinely have a reason for not haing a ticket, whether that is the fact they have left it at home, lost it, or overslept and not throw the book at them.
The difficulty of course is telling where someone has really made a mistake, and is not a perpetual fare evader.
This is what people do not understand, just because you oversleep and miss your stop doesn't entitle you to a free ride back.
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Exactly and the amount of times over sleepers don't have the correct ticket or even a ticket is numerous.
Chapeltom
Established Member
Who is saying anyone is asking for a free ride back? People are asking for discretion, that is not to be prosecuted as the fell asleep for whatever reason and wake past their stop. You cannot expect anyone to possibly even begin to agree with you if you think passengers should be penalised for falling sleep. Its inconvenience enough as it is. For me, it would be an hour onto my journey and another £2.10 on my local line (when heading home) which would be annoying enough.
deltic
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What other industry deliberately p***** off its core customer base. I despair at the total lack of customer service in parts of the rail industry. There are some amazing staff who go beyond the call of duty to get people safely to their destinations day in day out and there are others who just ruin all the good work they do. Its not unique to the rail industry - the transport sector as a whole doesnt seem to do customer service. Not helped by many customers attitude that they should only pay if forced to.
If only that was true!
I get the feeling that everything should be in the passengers oops I mean customers favour and any time it isnt in the passengers oops I mean customers favour then th railways are being drakonian or the staff are being jobsworths etc!
Why cant people understand that a passenger oops customer needs to buy ticket(s) that cover the entire journey they make/made!
If I hired a car and took it back a day late "because I made a mistake" and thought I was correct do you think they would let me off in the name of customer service or do you think they would charge me and also read me the riot act? I know what I think would happen!
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What other industry is expected to let its customers off every time those customers 'make a mistake'?
Flamingo
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I always remember asking a passenger who was asleep for a ticket on the last Cardiff train one Friday night, to get the reply "F@&£ off, I'm going to Reading, it's the next stop, there is f£&@ all you can do about it!".
I replied "Good for you, the next stop is Chippenham", and walked off.
Should I have offered this male a taxi back? After all, he had missed his stop!
I replied "Good for you, the next stop is Chippenham", and walked off.
Should I have offered this male a taxi back? After all, he had missed his stop!
deltic
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Plenty of businesses allow customers to "make a mistake" without punishing them. My local DIY store allows me to return goods if it turns out they are wrong size etc - as a result I use them on a regular basis. Plenty of other stores operate on the same principle.
The transport sector has a strange attitude to this whole issue - London's congestion charge is a classic example. In London forget to pay and you get clobbered with a huge penalty. In Norway you get sent a bill for the charge - only if you dont pay within a given time do you pay a penalty.
The attitude to customers is different.
Everything should be in the customers' favour unless they are deliberately breaking the rules - the service is provided solely for the customer so it would be strange if customer requirements were not the priority.
bb21
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The correct thing to do would be to not make any more noise during the journey in case you disturb his sleep further.
Back on topic, it is really quite simple here. If you miss your stop then you technically override and have no complaint if the relevant sanctions are applied. However staff are expected to use discretion in these cases, but that is all it is - discretion. It cannot be demanded. It would be nice if discretion is given in every similar case but that is simply not practical.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Doing that would lose the car hire company money as they cannot hire the car out for an extra day.
In my view (which is not what presently happens, at least on paper), falling asleep on a train and then leaving the railway at the station you were over-carried to to go shopping, for example, loses the railway money as the fare you should rightfully pay is the fare to your actual destination. Falling asleep on a train and then doubling back to the station you intended to alight at, without leaving the railway in between, doesn't lose the railway any money as the fare you should in my view pay is that between the stations you've travelled between.
Of course the law presently disagrees and people in the OP's situation today should hope that the member of staff dealing with them shares the view that most staff answering this thread have expressed
The slight difference there is the DIY store still have the product that they will sell again at full price and some stores may well demand a restocking fee.
PermitToTravel
Established Member
I sincerely hope that nobody has ever been offered a taxi at railway expense just because they missed their stop! (I'd understand if there was already a taxi going that way for staff, or a last connection that didn't connect, although not in the case of that ****)
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Whereas the railway will lose their.. oh.
So if you had bought a flatpack wardrobe, assembled it and then realised it wouldnt fit in the alcove, you are saying they would give you a full refund are you?
Where items are returned unopened and unused then consumer law means you get your money back regardless so I dont quite understand the point you are trying to make!
The laws on the railway state that if you over ride then you should pay the extra so your comparison with a DIY store doesnt quite work.
Oh and all these going on about nurses, firemen etc should remember that they chose their job and if they want the same pay and conditions as train drivers then they should become train drivers! It isnt complicated is it?
Many years ago friend of mine remortgaged his house and opened his own business, he now earns in a month what I earn in a year, am I jealous of him? No I am not, it could have just as easily gone wrong and he would have lost his house! he took a gamble and it paid off so well done to him, it isnt something I would be prepared to risk!
PermitToTravel
Established Member
Apologies for straying off-topic, but not quite. Consumer law entitles you to a refund when the products are not fit for purpose, but if they're not defective then stores only take them back for customer service reasons. (the exception is with goods bought online, where there is a statutory 7 day return period)
deltic
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In my example the store does not limit itself to its legal requirements - as Fahad notes your legal redress only applies if the goods are not as specified/faulty etc. Yes they have allowed me to return items where I removed them from the packaging (not quite a flatback wardrobe!).
With regard to overiding the issue is it deliberate to the advantage of the passenger or not and to no advantage.
We are in danger of conflating different issues here. I don't think anyone is saying that deliberate evaders shouldn't have the book thrown at them, nor even that additional fares shouldn't be paid for the doubling back element. The question is whether a zero tolerance approach to innocent overcarrying in a strict liability/ penalty fare context is appropriate.
Some years ago my sprightly 94 year old great uncle who lived in the Manchester area decided to have a day out by train to North Wales. Unfortunately he managed to board a train which didn't stop at Crewe and got whisked all the way to London Euston. The train crew were very kind to him but I get the impression the logic of some posters here would have had him ker-chinged for the full fare or worse!
The majority of staff go out of there way to help stranded people but there are always circumstances where staff feel that they need to deal with the matter officially which is what happened in the OP's case.
Unless you've been on the 'frontline' dealing with such cases it is difficult to make people understand what happens.
Unless you've been on the 'frontline' dealing with such cases it is difficult to make people understand what happens.
Flamingo
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I've had people who claimed they had slept past their stop. I've charged them. I was sure they were going further than their ticket allowed.
I've also had people who I was sure were genuine, and I have facilitated them getting home.
On paper, there would be no difference between them, if the story was being relayed, but I'm happy I made the right decision in every case.
I've also had people who I was sure were genuine, and I have facilitated them getting home.
On paper, there would be no difference between them, if the story was being relayed, but I'm happy I made the right decision in every case.
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