• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Fife Rail Electrification/Decarbonisation

Morayshire

Member
Joined
6 Feb 2019
Messages
299
Do you think in the private sector it would be acceptable to have an expensive asset depreciating for possibly years with barely any use? We are far too accepting of incompetence and waste in the government sector.

Err, yes. Note - I spend a fair chunk of my time designing and dealing with the construction of advanced earthworks platforms for large scale housing developments, some of which will only be finished years from now.

If it were just out in the open, then anyone from a local construction college could do something useful with the right hire equipment.
I'm sure someone from the local construction college if handed a set a scapels could do brain surgery but the chances of the patient surviving would be very low.

Earthworks is not as simple as digging a hole or chucking muck into a heap. We have moved on since the Victorians (which is why we spend a lot of money fixing their earthworks).
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
Do you think in the private sector it would be acceptable to have an expensive asset depreciating for possibly years with barely any use? We are far too accepting of incompetence and waste in the government sector.

Things can be individually wasteful but make economic sense as part of a larger programme.

A good example is that the first few hundred or thousand cars for a major car model (think VW Golf) are often consigned to the scrapheap from day one. It's wasteful but not if you're thinking about the millions of cars that are meant to follow. Flushing out as many problems as possible with the first few hundred/thousand might make a huge difference over the 8+ year lifecycle of the model. The company doesn't want to be on the hook for decades for any problems in the first batch. Apparently these early manufacturer-only batches (legally unable to be registered as normal cars on the road) are also good for car journalism, e.g. all of the silly things Top Gear used to do like sending a brand new Renault Twingo to the bottom of Belfast harbour.

Err, yes. Note - I spend a fair chunk of my time designing and dealing with the construction of advanced earthworks platforms for large scale housing developments, some of which will only be finished years from now.


I'm sure someone from the local construction college if handed a set a scapels could do brain surgery but the chances of the patient surviving would be very low.

Earthworks is not as simple as digging a hole or chucking muck into a heap. We have moved on since the Victorians (which is why we spend a lot of money fixing their earthworks).

I'm not claiming that the earthworks are ever trivial. I'm pointing out that approaches that can rely on local talent and equipment don't create the same bottleneck pressures as more complex ones. When we've only got so many TBM crews trained up we're better off using them for jobs that couldn't possibly be done any other way. If a job can be done through more conventional means, then it gets a lot easier to plan and schedule.
 

Cails27

Member
Joined
7 Feb 2022
Messages
30
Location
Edinburgh
Large can of worms opened here…!
The pros/cons of CPOs aside, Network Rail are not really interested in buying up more land - they are actively trying to sell off land at the moment. More land means more liability for trees, structures, earthworks - all things that could have a negative affect on their ability to run a successful railway.

The main issue, at least in my mind, is not the lack of wires up the Fife coast but the large amount of line speed changes. I’d much rather NR spend time and money on improving that aspect of the route to improve journey times and timetable resilience!
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
Large can of worms opened here…!
The pros/cons of CPOs aside, Network Rail are not really interested in buying up more land - they are actively trying to sell off land at the moment. More land means more liability for trees, structures, earthworks - all things that could have a negative affect on their ability to run a successful railway.

The main issue, at least in my mind, is not the lack of wires up the Fife coast but the large amount of line speed changes. I’d much rather NR spend time and money on improving that aspect of the route to improve journey times and timetable resilience!

Selling off land is all well and good until you need more land again to fix a problem. E.g. for those linespeed improvements, you may want to realign the railway. It happened at Market Harborough but I believe this was only possible because there was a good amount of empty brownfield land in railway ownership.

Bridges are another big problem. You can minimise impact on locals by building a replacement bridge, but there's not often a lot of suitable free land anywhere near. The bridge over the GWML at Steventon is a great example. The lack of good alternative roads means the option isn't available to the railway to just close the bridge to traffic while it is rebuilt. The only crossings nearby are level crossings and it wouldn't be acceptable to use them for more traffic. The existing bridge is in a poor condition with permanent traffic lights, meaning it doesn't suit the locals at all.

A totally financially viable option if NR had unlimited CPO and development rights would be replace the level crossings nearby with a new bridge. This would require a realignment of the road network, and the loss of some existing houses in order to make up the connections. The funds for this new bridge could be generated by developing the land south of the railway for housing, expanding the village. There's a huge shortage of housing in the south east of England, so this new housing could be very profitable. Using the opportunity to widen the GWML to four tracks here (the bridge a current bottleneck) could deliver benefits across a pretty large area of England.

Yes, it means CPOing some houses and overturning some green belt development restrictions. But if we don't occasionally do that, we are stuck with a bridge that can't be fixed that prevents national infrastructure from working properly. It's just silly. If NR owned the land then it'd probably have been fixed a long time ago, because it wouldn't require all of this paperwork and bureaucracy to fix.

If we're not willing to CPO more often then the rational course of action is for NR to retain ownership of more land. The more lineside neighbours who are actually tenants of NR, the easier it is to deal with problems. If NR owned the houses here, then it could just evict with a plan to demolish the house. The residents wouldn't have any special right to stay at all. It's only owner occupiers we end up caring about; tenants don't have any expectations they'll be able to live somewhere forever.
 

NotATrainspott

Established Member
Joined
2 Feb 2013
Messages
3,304
And also an unlimited budget. You forgot that part.

No. Because the funds come from the redevelopment. The only successful way to find passenger railways is to (re)develop land for housing. There's no shortage of demand for housing here.

For all practical purposes, the railway is the reason why most land in the south east is worth much at all. People want to live somewhere that allows them to get into central London quickly and efficiently for work, leisure and other purposes. The motorways and road network don't enable this because of fundamental capacity constraints in the centre of London. Park and rides just allow a road based feeder network onto the railway. Even if you live somewhere that doesn't have its own railway station, your local lifestyle is based on the fact that other people do still use the railway. Your job as a plumber depends on all of the demand and ability to pay generated by the people who do go to London.

It's fine for NR to not have this responsibility so long as the state handles it elsewhere. But this depends on a sort of central planning mindset which just doesn't really scale. Central government planning rules like the greenbelt are too slow and heavy to react to the needs that pop up on the railway. There are myriad small projects like Access for All which get just that little bit easier if you can CPO and redevelop. Maybe the station lift ends up being basically free if you're building a new block of accessible flats next door?

Railway infrastructure lasts much longer than houses so. A house needs a revamp after 25 years and then every 25 years onwards. Requirements keep changing and you see that people retrofit themselves into older houses, somewhat inefficiently. A rebore or other major reconstruction of Kinghorn tunnel will probably mean it lasts and can be useful for the next 200 years. After 25 years will anyone care at all that we knocked some houses down? It's not like the street is made up of architectural or historical marvels.
 

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
For all practical purposes, the railway is the reason why most land in the south east is worth much at all. People want to live somewhere that allows them to get into central London quickly and efficiently for work, leisure and other purposes. The motorways and road network don't enable this because of fundamental capacity constraints in the centre of London. Park and rides just allow a road based feeder network onto the railway. Even if you live somewhere that doesn't have its own railway station, your local lifestyle is based on the fact that other people do still use the railway. Your job as a plumber depends on all of the demand and ability to pay generated by the people who do go to London.
Yes, that is true. But given that the railway doesn't, generally speaking, own the land that those houses would be built on, nor do they run the plumbing company it sounds like you are just asking for Network Rail to get more money from central government. I'm not opposed to that, but the NHS, education, the MoD, etc. might have something to say about that.
 

Highlander1

Member
Joined
5 Sep 2025
Messages
173
Location
Inverness
No, they're supposed to have both ready at (roughly) the same time, so that neither stands idle.
What does roughly mean, that's very subjective. Both the Fife and Borders program are due to be completed around 2030 and the new trains start to come into service in 2031. It's worth remembering the new trains aren't just for this project, they're for the Glasgow suburban routes and will probably be used there first. Also they will likely be timed in with the leases ending on the 158, 156, 153, 170, 318 & 320 fleets.
 
Last edited:

Mag_seven

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
1 Sep 2014
Messages
11,933
Location
here to eternity
Just a gentle reminder that discussion here should be confined to discussing the ongoing Fife Circle Electrification project.
I have moved some posts about CPOs and the potential to make a profit on them to this thread:
 

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
I went out and recorded some footage over Thornton Junction in April, showing the electrification progress:

(Video showing the progress of electrification at Thornton North Junction)
 

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
The bridge on the road/farm land near Muriespot is now listed for demolition and replacement on the Fife Planning Portal website.
I would show diagrams, but I keep getting an "Error 429" "too many requests" screen, and it blocks me from viewing any of their website on all devices and browsers.
 

Attachments

  • image_2026-06-22_164207211.png
    image_2026-06-22_164207211.png
    486.8 KB · Views: 67

DesDobramento

Member
Joined
12 Jun 2025
Messages
74
Location
Portugal/UK
On Sunday 14 June and confirmed Saturday 27 June, a few masts erected adjacent to the southbound line a little way south of Kirkcaldy station, extending as far to the south as the approx site of the rail connection to Seafield Colliery. Nothing then as far as Dalmeny.

North of Dysart, there are a few masts starting around 2km south of Thornton S up to the junction, then no more through to Dundee, but most of the masts on the Leven branch looked to be in place on 16 June, with a worksite at Cameron Bridge Station.
 
Last edited:

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
My friend who went on a train sent me a video, which I unfortunately cannot send here, showing several masts with SPS on approach to Thornton Junction. I'm not sure how many there are as of now since I haven't been down to look myself, but I'll get my drone down there soon and upload the footage to YouTube.

most of the masts on the Leven branch looked to be in place on 16 June, with a worksite at Cameron Bridge Station.
Yes, the vast vast majority of masts are in place on the Leven branch, and not much work has happened recently if I'm honest. They're maybe dedicating their workforce to the Kirkcaldy section of electrification instead, which would make sense as they all need to be completed around the same time anyways.
 

AMD

Member
Joined
6 Dec 2017
Messages
770
A couple of photos showing the masts up around the access point just south of Thornton Junction.
 

Attachments

  • 20260629_143240.jpg
    20260629_143240.jpg
    4.6 MB · Views: 170
  • 20260629_143242.jpg
    20260629_143242.jpg
    5.3 MB · Views: 167

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
10,455
Location
Preston Lancs
The cantilevers go up with the masts, pioneered, I think, on the East Kilbride line. Seems to have improved productivity dramatically.
My bad I had not realised and I should have. So as you say, great improvement in productivity.
 
Last edited:

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
The cantilevers go up with the masts, pioneered, I think, on the East Kilbride line. Seems to have improved productivity dramatically.
The arms usually go up, as seen on the Dalmeny project. But this time, the arms carrying the contact wire have also been installed, which I haven’t personally seen before, as they usually only install them right before they install the overhead wires themselves.
 

och aye

Member
Joined
21 Jan 2012
Messages
1,008
Scotland's Railway video explaining the work happening at Thornton Main Street bridge.


We're rebuilding a bridge in Fife which carries Thornton's Main Street over the railway. With work getting underway, we spoke to Michael, our project manager to hear more about the process, and what's involved in replacing a bridge like this.

It's a crucial part of our £311.5m investment in modernising Fife’s railway, which will enable the introduction of a new fleet of battery-electric trains for ScotRail.

Find out more about the Thornton project here: https://scotlandsrailway.com/projects...
 
Last edited by a moderator:

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
Small update again, about 10-odd new masts have been installed south of Thornton Junction, now on the bridge which goes over a farm road right before the south junction. There will also be an overlap (quite obviously) just before the junction. I'll try to get some drone footage soon next time I am out.
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
10,455
Location
Preston Lancs
Small update again, about 10-odd new masts have been installed south of Thornton Junction, now on the bridge which goes over a farm road right before the south junction. There will also be an overlap (quite obviously) just before the junction. I'll try to get some drone footage soon next time I am out.
10 might not sound many but it is all progress! Great news. Thanks for the update.
 

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
An even smaller update this time.......!

Portal masts are now beginning to be installed at the south end of Thornton Junction, on the section of track where the Up Passing Loop resides. There is approximately four at the minute, with three being visible in the image provided.

(Image Credit: Me)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I've posted the drone footage I got this evening, along with other on-train video from a few days ago on LNER:

(A comprehensive video showing the overhead line works that have progressed in the last few weeks around the Thornton and Kirkcaldy area.)
 

Attachments

  • image_2026-07-09_214630012.png
    image_2026-07-09_214630012.png
    2.8 MB · Views: 41
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
33,589
Location
Scotland
I know it is easy for me to say as I am not affected by the closures, but I am glad they are going for total closures as it is more efficient and it gets more done.
As much as commuters will grumble, I'm sure that given the choice between short and sharp versus long and drawn out they would grudgingly admit that the complete closure is the better option.
 

TrainViation

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2025
Messages
292
Location
Glenrothes
I've made a video which talks about the Fife closure a little bit, most of this has probably already been seen but just for those who don't know or haven't looked into it:

(A news and update video about different events and announcements across the UK, featuring relevant Fife electrification information.)
 

Top