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Fife Line(s) Capacity

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TrainViation

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With all this talk about needing more services and an increase in the number of coaches on services on the Fife Circle, it's made me wonder what the maximum capacity of the line would be?

How many tph could Edinburgh to Dundee/Aberdeen or Perth handle through Fife? (This is mostly theoretical, though would be nice to get a rough idea.)

Also including inner circle services and Leven, since there would obviously be a bottleneck at Inverkeithing and south of that.
 
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Mcr Warrior

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Reckon that the capacity of the main line South of Inverkeithing, i.e. over the Forth Rail Bridge and into Edinburgh (so after where the lines from Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy have merged) is perhaps the key constraint. What service provision does the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline side of the Fife Circle currently normally see, maybe a maximum of three trains per hour (each way)? Anyone have any alternative thoughts on this?
 

TrainViation

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Reckon that the capacity of the main line South of Inverkeithing, i.e. over the Forth Rail Bridge and into Edinburgh (so after where the lines from Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy have merged) is perhaps the key constraint. What service provision does the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline side of the Fife Circle currently normally see, maybe a maximum of three trains per hour (each way)? Anyone have any alternative thoughts on this?
From what I can tell on RTT, there are two trains per hour to Edinburgh. One from Leven and the other from either Thornton or Cowdenbeath.
Northbound sees roughly the same twice hourly services to the same destinations from Edinburgh. So roughly 2tph in each direction.
 

Mcr Warrior

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From what I can tell on RTT, there are two trains per hour to Edinburgh. One from Leven and the other from either Thornton or Cowdenbeath.
Northbound sees roughly the same twice hourly services to the same destinations from Edinburgh. So roughly 2tph in each direction.
Indeed. But at certain (infrequent) times of the day, there are three trains in the one hour between Dunfermline Queen Margaret and Cowdenbeath, or vice-versa, which suggests it can be done. For example, tomorrow, there are departures from Cowdenbeath (which originate from further afield) to Edinburgh Waverley via Dunfermline Queen Margaret / Inverkeithing at 0713, 0730 and 0753. And in the reverse direction, peak hour workings from Dunfermline Queen Margaret back to (or beyond) Cowdenbeath at 1722, 1742 and 1755, all originating from Edinburgh Waverley.
 

dr140

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Reckon that the capacity of the main line South of Inverkeithing, i.e. over the Forth Rail Bridge and into Edinburgh (so after where the lines from Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline and Kirkcaldy have merged) is perhaps the key constraint. What service provision does the Cowdenbeath/Dunfermline side of the Fife Circle currently normally see, maybe a maximum of three trains per hour (each way)? Anyone have any alternative thoughts on this?
I completely agree that the constraint is with the core section of the route from Edinburgh to Inverkeithing. In the 60 minute period from 1655-1755 there are 10 departures towards Fife. Happy to be corrected, but I would imagine this is as close to maximum capacity as the line sees. With the various stopping patterns I would struggle to see where any additional departures could be fitted in currently in peak hours.
Departures are as follow:
1657 - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1701 - Leven via Kirkcaldy
1708 - Leven via Dunfermline
1715 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Kirkcaldy
1719 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Dunfermline
1730 - Aberdeen via Kirkcaldy
1738 - Perth via Kirkcaldy
1741 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Dunfermline
1746 - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1752 - Leven via Kirkcaldy

As a regular user of the line I would say an increase in available carriages on certain services is much more in need than any increase in services. At lease one of the above services is booked as a single 158 and regularly overcrowded leaving Haymarket.
 
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TrainViation

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I completely agree that the constraint is with the core section of the route from Edinburgh to Inverkeithing. In the 60 minute period from 1655-1755 there are 10 departures towards Fife. Happy to be corrected, but I would imagine this is as close to maximum capacity as the line sees. With the various stopping patterns I would struggle to see where any additional departures could be fitted in currently in peak hours.
Departures are as follow:
1657 - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1701 - Leven via Kirkcaldy
1708 - Leven via Dunfermline
1715 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Kirkcaldy
1719 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Dunfermline
1730 - Aberdeen via Kirkcaldy
1738 - Perth via Kirkcaldy
1741 - Glenrothes with Thornton via Dunfermline
1746 - Dundee via Kirkcaldy
1752 - Leven via Kirkcaldy

As a regular user of the line I would say an increase in available carriages on certain services is much more in need than any increase in services. At lease one of the above services is booked as a single 158 and regularly overcrowded leaving Haymarket.
I agree, services definitely need more carriages.

Especially on the longer distance route to Dundee, which I’ve seen operate (and ride) as a single 158 before. I think it should be more than a once hourly service to Dundee, maybe twice hourly would be enough. I think at least 6 coaches would be adequate for a service like that.

The inner Fife and Leven services are definitely frequent enough, but they do need more coaches. Haymarket, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy are a nightmare for commuter services at the best of times, and it’s amplified with 2 and 3 coach services.
 

dr140

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I agree, services definitely need more carriages.

Especially on the longer distance route to Dundee, which I’ve seen operate (and ride) as a single 158 before. I think it should be more than a once hourly service to Dundee, maybe twice hourly would be enough. I think at least 6 coaches would be adequate for a service like that.

The inner Fife and Leven services are definitely frequent enough, but they do need more coaches. Haymarket, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy are a nightmare for commuter services at the best of times, and it’s amplified with 2 and 3 coach services.
That's an interesting point on the Dundee services and something which I'm inclined to agree with. 2 trains per hour from Dundee and Leuchars towards Edinburgh, particularly in the peak tourist summer months is just simply not enough. I know there's limitations between Cupar and Dundee due to the mechanical signalling still in use limiting the number of trains that can run. I wonder what the capacity of that section is? Often the Dundee semi fast service is delayed after leaving Dundee due to being close behind a late running southbound Aberdeen service, with the semi fast having to wait until the train has cleared the long section to from the Tay Bridge to Leuchars before it can proceed.
 

TrainViation

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That's an interesting point on the Dundee services and something which I'm inclined to agree with. 2 trains per hour from Dundee and Leuchars towards Edinburgh, particularly in the peak tourist summer months is just simply not enough. I know there's limitations between Cupar and Dundee due to the mechanical signalling still in use limiting the number of trains that can run. I wonder what the capacity of that section is? Often the Dundee semi fast service is delayed after leaving Dundee due to being close behind a late running southbound Aberdeen service, with the semi fast having to wait until the train has cleared the long section to from the Tay Bridge to Leuchars before it can proceed.
Another thing I'm not too happy about is that ScotRail no longer, or hasn't done for ages, stopped Inter7City services at Markinch.
We used to get an abundance of HSTs stopping there back in the Inverness via Fife days, with most of them usually stopping there.
Now the only fast services stopping are late night fast services to Edinburgh at around 2100 to 2300, which I don't really see much point.
We get one direct Aberdeen service on a 170 in the morning and one back at night. Markinch has really been cut off in the past 5 years.
Heck we even used to get a direct service to Glasgow Queen Street at one point.
 

60159

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I agree, services definitely need more carriages.

Especially on the longer distance route to Dundee, which I’ve seen operate (and ride) as a single 158 before. I think it should be more than a once hourly service to Dundee, maybe twice hourly would be enough. I think at least 6 coaches would be adequate for a service like that.

The inner Fife and Leven services are definitely frequent enough, but they do need more coaches. Haymarket, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy are a nightmare for commuter services at the best of times, and it’s amplified with 2 and 3 coach services.
Not long ago I took photos of official figures for costs, subsidy etc. for all Scottish lines and was pretty surprised to read ( if I have interpreted correctly) that each passenger in the Central belt - Dundee/Arbroath area is subsidised to the tune if £11.18. Huge. Can they afford extra services/carriages/units?
This does include all central belt so not just Fife services.
 

Class 170101

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Probably more room for services at the south end between Haymarket and Inverkeithing but watch constraints elsewhere as that may well preclude other services
 

InOban

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However you count them, the Fife lines into Waverley are less busy than the Glasgow lines hence a few of the latter cross over to the Fife side before haymarket
 

60159

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However you count them, the Fife lines into Waverley are less busy than the Glasgow lines hence a few of the latter cross over to the Fife side before haymarket
There must be spare capacity. Is that not the whole point of the proposed Almond Chord? Glasgow lines full but Fife not.
If it is ever built that may well have a detrimental effect on Fife capacity.
 

TrainViation

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There must be spare capacity. Is that not the whole point of the proposed Almond Chord? Glasgow lines full but Fife not.
If it is ever built that may well have a detrimental effect on Fife capacity.
The reason it was proposed I think was to create an easier link between Glasgow and Edinburgh Airport via the new Gateway station, and also I'm assuming to take some load off of the section between Haymarket and Newbridge Jn for all of the Bathgate and beyond services. It makes sense in my head, and the estimated journey times aren't much different if I remember correctly.
 

Highlander1

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I agree, services definitely need more carriages.

Especially on the longer distance route to Dundee, which I’ve seen operate (and ride) as a single 158 before. I think it should be more than a once hourly service to Dundee, maybe twice hourly would be enough. I think at least 6 coaches would be adequate for a service like that.

The inner Fife and Leven services are definitely frequent enough, but they do need more coaches. Haymarket, Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy are a nightmare for commuter services at the best of times, and it’s amplified with 2 and 3 coach services.
This is the issue across the board, not just Fife. Paying massive sums for extra stock that would be needed for a small number of busy services at peak times isn't cost effective, especially given the level of subsidy already in place. I don't agree with it but that's the reality.
That being said, the new BEMU stock should given a boost to capacity given they are likely to be fixed formations.

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That's an interesting point on the Dundee services and something which I'm inclined to agree with. 2 trains per hour from Dundee and Leuchars towards Edinburgh, particularly in the peak tourist summer months is just simply not enough. I know there's limitations between Cupar and Dundee due to the mechanical signalling still in use limiting the number of trains that can run. I wonder what the capacity of that section is? Often the Dundee semi fast service is delayed after leaving Dundee due to being close behind a late running southbound Aberdeen service, with the semi fast having to wait until the train has cleared the long section to from the Tay Bridge to Leuchars before it can proceed.
The Tay Bridge is treated as a single track so there's a significant capacity constraints on services between Dundee and Leuchars.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Another thing I'm not too happy about is that ScotRail no longer, or hasn't done for ages, stopped Inter7City services at Markinch.
We used to get an abundance of HSTs stopping there back in the Inverness via Fife days, with most of them usually stopping there.
Now the only fast services stopping are late night fast services to Edinburgh at around 2100 to 2300, which I don't really see much point.
We get one direct Aberdeen service on a 170 in the morning and one back at night. Markinch has really been cut off in the past 5 years.
Heck we even used to get a direct service to Glasgow Queen Street at one point.
Are you suggesting Aberdeen services calling additionally at Markinch or that HSTs operate Fife stopping services? The last thing we want is HSTs operating stopping services. They are not designed for it. Narrow single leaf doors, high step up from platform height and slow acceleration and breaking vs a DMU means they'd be impractical. It was trialled when HSTs were first introduced to the Scotrail fleet.
Sundays see a number of HSTs call at Markinch when there are gaps in Edinburgh to Dundee services.
Markinch and Glenrothes combined has a population of approx 45,000 and Markinch station sees around 700 passengers a day. A half hourly service in each direction seems reasonable to me.
 
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TrainViation

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Are you suggesting Aberdeen services calling additionally at Markinch or that HSTs operate Fife stopping services? The last thing we want is HSTs operating stopping services. They are not designed for it. Narrow single leaf doors, high step up from platform height and slow acceleration and breaking vs a DMU means they'd be impractical. It was trialled when HSTs were first introduced to the Scotrail fleet.
Sundays see a number of HSTs call at Markinch when there are gaps in Edinburgh to Dundee services.
Markinch and Glenrothes combined has a population of approx 45,000 and Markinch station sees around 700 passengers a day. A half hourly service in each direction seems reasonable to me.
Not specifically HSTs I mean, just the direct connectivity from Fife and preferably Markinch with Aberdeen and maybe Inverness. 255,000 passengers per year, though I’m not sure what figures make it worth stopping long distance services at stations. Considering our connectivity with the rest of Scotland around 2022, including direct services to Edinburgh, Tweedbank, Dundee, Perth, Inverness, Arbroath, Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen Street. Now only serving Edinburgh, Dundee and Perth, it’s a lot less convenient.

I more just don’t understand why HSTs will stop at a smaller station such as Cupar, but completely skip the entirety of Fife and its next stop being Haymarket.
 

overthewater

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Before covid they used to be two Diesel hauled train with around 7 Mk3 carriages on each, what happened to them? They used to mop up alot of the peak time passengers, mind you they were only suppose to be used for a few year then it lasted nearly 20.
 

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Before covid they used to be two Diesel hauled train with around 7 Mk3 carriages on each, what happened to them? They used to mop up alot of the peak time passengers, mind you they were only suppose to be used for a few year then it lasted nearly 20.
They were Mk2f carriages, not Mk3. A combination of the HSTs finally arriving at Scotrail and a lack of accessibility did for them.
 

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I've sometimes wondered if the capacity would exist for a hypothetical Leven - Glasgow service as an extension of the Glasgow - Alloa through Kincardine and Dunfermline. From my napkin mathematics I think it would just about competitive with the peak X27 to/from Leven, the X24 to/from Glenrothes, the X27 to/from Cowdenbeath and about equal with the X24/X27 to/from Dunfermline, whilst also linking Stirling and Clackmannanshire with Dunfermline. The coach services on the corridor are quite popular and can often fill the 75-seat coaches allocated to it at peak times.
 

Highlander1

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Not specifically HSTs I mean, just the direct connectivity from Fife and preferably Markinch with Aberdeen and maybe Inverness. 255,000 passengers per year, though I’m not sure what figures make it worth stopping long distance services at stations. Considering our connectivity with the rest of Scotland around 2022, including direct services to Edinburgh, Tweedbank, Dundee, Perth, Inverness, Arbroath, Aberdeen and Glasgow Queen Street. Now only serving Edinburgh, Dundee and Perth, it’s a lot less convenient.

I more just don’t understand why HSTs will stop at a smaller station such as Cupar, but completely skip the entirety of Fife and its next stop being Haymarket.
Aberdeen services stop at Cupar because it only got one train an hour rather the two the rest of the stations on the route got. Inverness trains don't call there because they now go via Stirling as this is better for connections. For Aberdeen it's hardly a hardship to change at Dundee. There's no reason to slow down Intercity journeys for what would be very few passengers travelling North of Dundee, especially when it's a easy connection.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

They were Mk2f carriages, not Mk3. A combination of the HSTs finally arriving at Scotrail and a lack of accessibility did for them.
They didn't meet PRM requirements. They also didn't have toilet tanks.
 
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TrainViation

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Would it not be more effective to add another commuter service to Dundee, rather than stopping an Inter7City service at a station that hardly needs it. Plus, it would benefit the rest of Fife and speed up the existing HST, which like you said would be better as there wouldn’t be the need for an extra instance of slow breaking and accelerating which would drop a few minutes off of the service.
 

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Would it not be more effective to add another commuter service to Dundee, rather than stopping an Inter7City service at a station that hardly needs it. Plus, it would benefit the rest of Fife and speed up the existing HST, which like you said would be better as there wouldn’t be the need for an extra instance of slow breaking and accelerating which would drop a few minutes off of the service.

Probably tricky to add an all-stops path in the Fife route whilst then speeding up the express services, you can't really do both easily as the express gets stuck behind the stopper.

As said I think the best intermediate improvement would be to make the 2 or 3 carriage trains currently all 5 or 6.
 

Class83

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Previously the Edinburgh-Aberdeen Express services (now Inter7City) called at Inverkeithing (serving Dunfermline), Kirkcaldy and Markinch (serving Glenrothes) hourly, providing additional capacity between Fife and Edinburgh. Additionally there was an Inverness train via Markinch every 2 hours. This meant the Fife Circle trains were primarily serving Dunfermline and the smaller stations which they just about had capacity for.

The Inverness trains were diverted via Stirling and the Aberdeen trains are now mostly non-stop to Leuchars. This has resulted in very limited capacity between the populated parts of Fife and Edinburgh. 6 carriage trains at peak times needs to be the priority, followed by revaluation of the stops on the Edinburgh to Aberdeen services which now skip the 3rd, 4th and 5th largest settlements on the line while stopping at many smaller stations so arguments about journey times are tenuous. LNER and Caledonian Sleeper services still call at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy, but are infrequent.
 

numtot12345

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I've sometimes wondered if the capacity would exist for a hypothetical Leven - Glasgow service as an extension of the Glasgow - Alloa through Kincardine and Dunfermline. From my napkin mathematics I think it would just about competitive with the peak X27 to/from Leven, the X24 to/from Glenrothes, the X27 to/from Cowdenbeath and about equal with the X24/X27 to/from Dunfermline, whilst also linking Stirling and Clackmannanshire with Dunfermline. The coach services on the corridor are quite popular and can often fill the 75-seat coaches allocated to it at peak times.
It's a funny one - the train itself would serve multiple markets:
1) Cross-Fife travel (Fife Crossrail??) plus
2) the existing Glasgow-Alloa service.

The further east you go (i.e. towards Leven), the less competitive travel between Glasgow and Leven becomes with the Bus given it would have to route via Kincardin. If you were truly wanting to provide a direct Glasgow-Leven service then you'd be better going via the Almond Chord. There used to be the 1x a day service Markinch(?)-Glasgow via Almond Chord for commuters that doesn't run any more...theoretically a service like that could be reinstated and extended to Leven?

Last time I checked, the Leven-Glasgow bus services are highly skewed to the Commuter market (>Glasgow AM and >Leven in the PM) as opposed to regular throughout the day? If there's a significant capacity issue with the buses, then it's maybe worth re-instating that Fife-Glasgow service.
 

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Previously the Edinburgh-Aberdeen Express services (now Inter7City) called at Inverkeithing (serving Dunfermline), Kirkcaldy and Markinch (serving Glenrothes) hourly, providing additional capacity between Fife and Edinburgh. Additionally there was an Inverness train via Markinch every 2 hours. This meant the Fife Circle trains were primarily serving Dunfermline and the smaller stations which they just about had capacity for.

The Inverness trains were diverted via Stirling and the Aberdeen trains are now mostly non-stop to Leuchars. This has resulted in very limited capacity between the populated parts of Fife and Edinburgh. 6 carriage trains at peak times needs to be the priority, followed by revaluation of the stops on the Edinburgh to Aberdeen services which now skip the 3rd, 4th and 5th largest settlements on the line while stopping at many smaller stations so arguments about journey times are tenuous. LNER and Caledonian Sleeper services still call at Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy, but are infrequent.
It also has the side effect of Aberdeen and Stonehaven requiring two changes to reach the local Fife stations - or doubling back via Haymarket.

Regardng journey times - there was a pot of money set aside years ago to improve timings and this hasn't been spent (or was spent elsewhere). It would be good to see some infrastructure improvements made instead of cutting stops
 

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It's a funny one - the train itself would serve multiple markets:
1) Cross-Fife travel (Fife Crossrail??) plus
2) the existing Glasgow-Alloa service.

The further east you go (i.e. towards Leven), the less competitive travel between Glasgow and Leven becomes with the Bus given it would have to route via Kincardin. [sic] If you were truly wanting to provide a direct Glasgow-Leven service then you'd be better going via the Almond Chord. There used to be the 1x a day service Markinch(?)-Glasgow via Almond Chord for commuters that doesn't run any more...theoretically a service like that could be reinstated and extended to Leven?

Last time I checked, the Leven-Glasgow bus services are highly skewed to the Commuter market (>Glasgow AM and >Leven in the PM) as opposed to regular throughout the day? If there's a significant capacity issue with the buses, then it's maybe worth re-instating that Fife-Glasgow service.
If I recall correctly, the X27 doesn't get much end-to-end travel as far as Leven, it's mostly used because the depot is just south-west of Leven in Aberhill. This option gives Clackmannan/Kincardine/Cairneyhill a direct service to Glasgow, at least hourly unless there is potentially room for a Cowdenbeath short run as an extension of the other Alloa service? The idea of using the one train for multiple markets (Glasgow <> Stirling/Clackmannanshire, Glasgow <> Fife, Stirling/Clackmannanshire <> Fife, the latter two of which are presently dominated by bus (X24/X27 and X22 respectively)) would essentially lower the potential public transport expenditure of serving them separately (and also score political brownie points for reopening an 'unused line' that would only really benefit those in Kincardine/Clackmannan).

(It is also likely possible that such a service via Stirling could then be operated without the need for BEMUs, improving resiliency)
 

TrainViation

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If I recall correctly, the X27 doesn't get much end-to-end travel as far as Leven, it's mostly used because the depot is just south-west of Leven in Aberhill. This option gives Clackmannan/Kincardine/Cairneyhill a direct service to Glasgow, at least hourly unless there is potentially room for a Cowdenbeath short run as an extension of the other Alloa service? The idea of using the one train for multiple markets (Glasgow <> Stirling/Clackmannanshire, Glasgow <> Fife, Stirling/Clackmannanshire <> Fife, the latter two of which are presently dominated by bus (X24/X27 and X22 respectively)) would essentially lower the potential public transport expenditure of serving them separately (and also score political brownie points for reopening an 'unused line' that would only really benefit those in Kincardine/Clackmannan).

(It is also likely possible that such a service via Stirling could then be operated without the need for BEMUs, improving resiliency)
Off topic, but the north of Fife has ZERO direct connection with Stirling, without changing at Dunfermline or Forth Valley Hospital on the bus.

Leven to Glasgow or even Stirling to make use of the north bay platforms, would make a world of difference.
 

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Off topic, but the north of Fife has ZERO direct connection with Stirling, without changing at Dunfermline or Forth Valley Hospital on the bus.

Leven to Glasgow or even Stirling to make use of the north bay platforms, would make a world of difference.
That was largely my thinking, based upon my (enthusiast-driven) observations of transport patterns. If the curve south of Charlestown Junction is built (which IIRC is protected from development), then there could be a potential for a peak time Stirling - Edinburgh via Alloa, Kincardine and Rosyth to add additional capacity and give them a peak-time Edinburgh link. My only concern would be the aforementioned capacity issues south of Rosyth, but I'm sure with the improved acceleration from the battery-electrification room could be made for one addition peak return over the Forth...
 

Class83

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It also has the side effect of Aberdeen and Stonehaven requiring two changes to reach the local Fife stations - or doubling back via Haymarket.

Regardng journey times - there was a pot of money set aside years ago to improve timings and this hasn't been spent (or was spent elsewhere). It would be good to see some infrastructure improvements made instead of cutting stops
Fully agree it was a backwards step, reducing connectivity, with very little benefit on journey times even for the station pairs Scotrail prioritised.

In the 2004 timetable there most common time from Edinburgh to Dundee (only departure times listed, so would have arrived in Dundee a minute or 2 sooner) was 1h14m with stops at Haymarket, Inverkeithing, Kirkcaldy, Markinch, Ladybank, Cupar and Leuchars.

Today, most services call only at Haymarket, Cupar and Leuchars, the timings are much more variable, commonly 1h12m-1h15m, with one train per day (the 1130 from Edinburgh) timed at 1h09m (using Dundee departure time to give fair comparison, current timetables do have arrival times usually 1-2 mins less).

Edinburgh to Perth has actually slowed from 1h14m to 1h16m.

Spending on things like electrification or signaling which would allow faster acceleration and line speed has been notable by how little has occurred, the current partial electrification feels symptomatically too little too late.
 

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All they've done is cut a significant amount of connectivity in Fife, yet ended up with the same if not longer journey times. Well done ScotRail...
I'm surprised the entire line up to at LEAST Dundee hasn't been fully re-signalled yet to be very honest. I thought that would've been a pretty obvious investment.

The whole partial electrification is more of a way for the government to say "we don't have enough money, so we're gonna cheap our way into it first".
It only solves half of our issues, albeit with a somewhat cheaper cost. God knows how Dundee and Perth services will work, given no electrification north of Ladybank for the time being, and that's atleast 20km each way between them. BEMUs barely fit the demographic of the Fife Circle route, but certainly not the "inter-city" route to Dundee and Perth. Unless Network Rail installs OHLE into Dundee station where the trains can charge on idle, I don't see any way the trains will have enough range to make it back to Edinburgh, as there is more track without wires over them on the route than there are (if that makes sense).
 
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