Fife Circle run from Glasgow

[breadfan]

How Do,

I've had a look at a couple of Fife Circle threads which advise a return to Glenrothes or Rosyth for the run from Edinburgh. Would this be the same advice for a run from Glasgow? I'm hoping to have a run next Wednesday (15th january)

Is it an anytime return I need for using the 1708 off Waverley with the loco hauled stock? I got into bother last time I had a run on this train as I used a ticket machine due to lengthy queues at the ticket office, and got an off peak ticket (as we do in North-West England) then got excessed by a grumpy guard.

Cheers in advance.

 

[Eagle]

A ticket to Rosyth is not valid for making a full circle (neither from Edinburgh nor Glasgow). You need a ticket to Glenrothes or Cardenden.

 

[Altnabreac]

How Do,

I've had a look at a couple of Fife Circle threads which advise a return to Glenrothes or Rosyth for the run from Edinburgh. Would this be the same advice for a run from Glasgow? I'm hoping to have a run next Wednesday (15th january)

Is it an anytime return I need for using the 1708 off Waverley with the loco hauled stock? I got into bother last time I had a run on this train as I used a ticket machine due to lengthy queues at the ticket office, and got an off peak ticket (as we do in North-West England) then got excessed by a grumpy guard.

Cheers in advance.

An Off Peak Day Return from Glasgow to Perth at £15.70 should do the trick.
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GLQ&dest=PTH&tkt=CDR

Restriction code B7 Valid any train after 08.00 outward, return by any train.

Valid via Glenrothes or Kirkcaldy by Maps EG + KI. Just stop short at Glenrothes (or Kirkcaldy) and start short on your return at the same station for the return trip round the circle.

 

[ainsworth74]

A ticket to Rosyth is not valid for making a full circle (neither from Edinburgh nor Glasgow). You need a ticket to Glenrothes or Cardenden.

Yes they've fixed that, finally, by using the most simple and obvious option of no longer operating the service as Edinburgh to Edinburgh. Before that they tried all sorts of things including one which was far more complex than the above and didn't fix the problem in any case.

 

[breadfan]

An Off Peak Day Return from Glasgow to Perth at £15.70 should do the trick.
http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GLQ&dest=PTH&tkt=CDR

Restriction code B7 Valid any train after 08.00 outward, return by any train.

Valid via Glenrothes or Kirkcaldy by Maps EG + KI. Just stop short at Glenrothes (or Kirkcaldy) and start short on your return at the same station for the return trip round the circle.

Thanks for the replies


Would this be valid via Edinburgh (well, Haymarket)?

 

[Altnabreac]

Thanks for the replies


Would this be valid via Edinburgh (well, Haymarket)?

This is definitely valid via Haymarket, no problem.

It should also be valid for doubleback via Edinburgh Waverley under the Group Stations rule:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1192141

Usually you won't get any checks on this section anyway so its only gate staff at Waverley you might need to discuss it with. Technically it may not be valid for a break of journey at Waverley but they should let you through the gateline to use station facilities / change platforms etc.

I have used this ticket Glasgow - Edinburgh - Thornton and/or Markinch before without any issues so most Fife circle staff seem aware of its validity via Edinburgh and Fife.

Never used it to stay on round the circle but don't see that causing any huge problems (explicitly it is valid to do this but you never know with some Guards).

 

[yorkie]

How Do,

I've had a look at a couple of Fife Circle threads which advise a return to Glenrothes or Rosyth for the run from Edinburgh. Would this be the same advice for a run from Glasgow? I'm hoping to have a run next Wednesday (15th january)

The advice from Edinburgh was to get an Edinburgh - Dalgety Bay ticket (though Rosyth was also valid) as the train was advertised in the National Rail Timetable as a through service from origin to destination, but via the long way round, and the NRCoC stated that through trains are valid.

But that would not apply to a Glasgow ticket, as the service was not a through service from Glasgow!

Since then, the service has been "split" at Glenrothes, in an attempt to close the anomaly with tickets from Edinburgh.

Some people have argued in previous threads that, due to the NRCoC wording changing recently, even that "splitting" of the service at Glenrothes does not invalidate a ticket to Dalgetty Bay, because you don't need to change trains, however I would strongly advise who believes that does not do it, unless they have consulted their solicitor prior to the journey and is happy to be a potential 'test case' in court!!

Is it an anytime return I need for using the 1708 off Waverley with the loco hauled stock? I got into bother last time I had a run on this train as I used a ticket machine due to lengthy queues at the ticket office, and got an off peak ticket (as we do in North-West England) then got excessed by a grumpy guard.

Cheers in advance.

Edinburgh - Glenrothes Off Peak Day Return (CDR) states:
"Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at
Glasgow Queen St or Central,
Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays
-Fridays any service departing
between 1643 and 1810"

Glasgow - Glenrothes Off Peak Return (SVR) states:
"Valid by any train timed to
depart after 0915"

If you used the Edinburgh CDR ticket on this service, then I agree the guard is entitled to charge an excess fare, which is the whole difference between the fare paid and the price of the appropriate fare (including Railcard discounts, where applicable). The guards range from grumpy to very friendly (at least one of whom is on this forum).

A couple of years ago I witnessed a guard attempt to charge passengers an excess on a Rosyth-Edinburgh going the long way round, because he did not accept the through trains rule existed, after threatening to call BTP he eventually relented when shown the NRCoC, but it was not a pleasant journey.

 

[Altnabreac]

The advice from Edinburgh was to get an Edinburgh - Dalgety Bay ticket (though Rosyth was also valid) as the train was advertised in the National Rail Timetable as a through service from origin to destination, but via the long way round, and the NRCoC stated that through trains are valid.

But that would not apply to a Glasgow ticket, as the service was not a through service from Glasgow!

Since then, the service has been "split" at Glenrothes, in an attempt to close the anomaly with tickets from Edinburgh.

Some people have argued in previous threads that, due to the NRCoC wording changing recently, even that "splitting" of the service at Glenrothes does not invalidate a ticket to Dalgetty Bay, because you don't need to change trains, however I would strongly advise who believes that does not do it, unless they have consulted their solicitor prior to the journey and is happy to be a potential 'test case' in court!!

Edinburgh - Glenrothes Off Peak Day Return (CDR) states:
"Passengers MAY NOT JOIN at
Glasgow Queen St or Central,
Edinburgh or Haymarket Mondays
-Fridays any service departing
between 1643 and 1810"

Glasgow - Glenrothes Off Peak Return (SVR) states:
"Valid by any train timed to
depart after 0915"

If you used the Edinburgh CDR ticket on this service, then I agree the guard is entitled to charge an excess fare, which is the whole difference between the fare paid and the price of the appropriate fare (including Railcard discounts, where applicable). The guards range from grumpy to very friendly (at least one of whom is on this forum).

A couple of years ago I witnessed a guard attempt to charge passengers an excess on a Rosyth-Edinburgh going the long way round, because he did not accept the through trains rule existed, after threatening to call BTP he eventually relented when shown the NRCoC, but it was not a pleasant journey.

For passengers transiting through Edinburgh with bikes or who don't mind a bit of walk you can avoid Edinburgh evening peak restrictions by boarding / alighting at Wester Hailes/Edinburgh Park/South Gyle as the evening peak restrictions do not apply to boarding at these stations. All 3 are walkable but much quicker by bike.

For journeys like Shotts - Linlithgow or Bathgate - Fife when using a bike there will usually be be no time penalty compared to changing at Haymarket.

 

[breadfan]

Brilliant, thanks for your time and efforts

 

[John @ home]

As Altnabreac has said in post #3, the £15.70 Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) Glasgow Queen St - Perth is better value than the cheapest flexible Glasgow - Glenrothes fare, the £24.50 (Railcard £16.15) Off-Peak Return (SVR) Glasgow Cen/QSt - Glenrothes.

The Glasgow - Perth CDR is permitted via Edinburgh Group by map combination EG+KI and there are no restrictions on break(s) of either or both legs of the journey.

Oddly, I can't get either the East Coast site or brfares.com to show a Railcard discounted version of the £15.70 CDR Glasgow - Perth. This appears to be caused by the £15.70 CDR Glasgow Cen/QSt - Perth being superseded in the fares database by a separate £15.70 CDR Glasgow Queen St - Perth. See this list of Glasgow - Perth fares.

It is not clear to me whether this lack of Railcard discount is an error or a deliberate decision by ScotRail not to offer Railcard discount on this Off-Peak Day Return (CDR). If deliberate, this would appear to be in breach of the relevant Railcard agreement, for example:

A Railcard will give you 1/3 off the price of the following ticket types: ...

Standard Off-Peak and Off-Peak Day Singles and Returns

http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/eligibility-benefits/tickets-travel-times/

UPDATE It appears that the lack of Railcard discount for the CDR Glasgow Queen St - Perth has been raised with ScotRail in this exchange. An informed response is still awaited.

 

[yorkie]

UPDATE It appears that the lack of Railcard discount for the CDR Glasgow Queen St - Perth has been raised with ScotRail in this exchange. An informed response is still awaited.

My friend wishes to use a 16-25 Railcard, travelling after 10:00.

HI there the fare is £15.70 for an Off Peak day ret with the railcard. There may be advance singles, which work out cheaper.

But the fare is £15.70 *without* a Railcard, so are you telling me there is no Railcard discount applicable to this ticket?

No, not for the day return fare. There is a discount for the open ret ticket. You can get a dsicount on Advance sgl tickets.

So, just to clarify, you are telling me that a 16-25 Railcard discount cannot be applied to an Off Peak Day Return (CDR) fare?

It is not showing in my system for the journey that you wish to make. Please call telesales on 08457 55 00 33 they will clarify

NRE have confirmed a Railcard discount is applicable to *all* Off Peak Day Returns. Can you ask your retail team to fix it please?

Please call CR on 08456015929 and they will get this reported to the relevant manger. Thanks

is there a number that is not chargeable for mobile phones ? I don't have a landline. I'm surprised you can't raise it internally?

CR will take your details and respond to you once they have contacted the relevant manager.

Looks like we're not going to get an update, unless someone 'phones Scotrail. (Anyone got a spare half an hour or so?:roll

 

[John @ home]

It's not just the £15.70 CDR Glasgow Queen St to Perth which lacks a Railcard discounted fare.

The same problem arises with:

• £15.70 CDR Perth to Glasgow Queen St
• £15.70 CDR Glasgow Queen St to Dunkeld
• £15.70 CDR Dunkeld to Glasgow Queen St

In each instance, CDR tickets for the flow to or from cluster 0433 (Glasgow Cen/QSt) are suppressed and those at the same price for the replacement flow to or from Glasgow Queen St (only) do not allow Railcard discounts.

 

[breadfan]

Just a thought;

Could a brief bit about which tickets are of best use be tagged on to the end of the relevant diagram in the Frequently Requested Diagrams bit for this? It seems to crop up quite regularly. And I found this thread to be way better than I was expecting (not that I had low expectations )

 

[yorkie]

Just a thought;

Could a brief bit about which tickets are of best use be tagged on to the end of the relevant diagram in the Frequently Requested Diagrams bit for this? It seems to crop up quite regularly. And I found this thread to be way better than I was expecting (not that I had low expectations )

Possibly, but then you would only have found advice from Edinburgh

Also the absolute cheapest is often a "loophole" ticket which may not be intended to be valid (which could be removed as soon as the relevant pricing manager becomes aware of it)

It would be a big task, and there's the matter of keeping it up-to-date! Sprinterman and all who have supplied info have done a fantastic job with the diagrams, but there are other projects we've had which didn't get finished...

 

[reb0118]

Just a thought but does using Charing Cross Glasgow instead of Glasgow Queen Street as the origin help out with the railcard issue? Here.

As an aside, can a train terminate at a certain station but still be an advertised through train to somewhere else? I.e. are the two mutually exclusive?

In our Fife Circle example above it could be said that as certain (roughly one in two for most of the day) trains do carry on to complete the circle and that they are advertised to do so in the footnotes of the ScotRail timetable, on station display monitors, and by ontrain announcements ~ that they do indeed pass the criterion for an "advertised through train",

thoughts......................

 

[overthewater]

So when did the route of the ticket Route "ANY permitted" get withdrawn from the Fife circles?

All Ciruler trains have to operate though since passengers are traveling from Dunfermline/Cowdenbeath/Cardenden to Kirkcaldy and Burntisland etc

Or have I mist something here?

 

[bb21]

I'm not sure what you mean.

The services are still operating through, only that technically they have now been split at Glenrothes into two services.

There is no change to any routeing on tickets that I am aware of. "Any Permitted" tickets have remained "Any Permitted".

 

[D6975]

Just a thought;

Could a brief bit about which tickets are of best use be tagged on to the end of the relevant diagram in the Frequently Requested Diagrams bit for this? It seems to crop up quite regularly. And I found this thread to be way better than I was expecting (not that I had low expectations )

Good idea.

A useful ticket for the Fife circle if you're up there for a few days is the Central Scotland 3 in 7 rover. Look it up, it's a real bargain. The map on NRE for it is wrong though - look on Scotrail's site, that one is correct. It now includes all the Glasgow-Edinburgh routes, not just the northern ones.

 

[Eagle]

All Ciruler trains have to operate though since passengers are traveling from Dunfermline/Cowdenbeath/Cardenden to Kirkcaldy and Burntisland etc

That is still permitted as ever. It's just that now you are officially making a change at Thornton (despite not getting off the train :P).

 

[IanD]

Good idea.

A useful ticket for the Fife circle if you're up there for a few days is the Central Scotland 3 in 7 rover. Look it up, it's a real bargain. The map on NRE for it is wrong though - look on Scotrail's site, that one is correct. It now includes all the Glasgow-Edinburgh routes, not just the northern ones.

That looks a lot better than the one one NRE. I reckon that with one of these and a Daytripper I could clear off the remaining track I need in Scotland.

A couple of cheap advances and travelodges and that's my summer hols sorted.

 

[railwayworker]

I used to be a ticket examiner and often had this request.

If the passenger was traveling from Glasgow to Glenrothes and back it would have been a SDR(Standard Day Return).

This would have granted the passenger travel on any route to get to Glenrothes and back to Glasgow.

You can break your journey on these tickets so if you wanted to stop at Dalmeny or North Queensferry you could have also done this.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I used to be a ticket examiner and often had this request. . . . .

I'm glad you've raised this, railwayworker. You've reminded me that I wanted to check whether the ticket booking engines had been changed in response to the (apparent) non-availability of Railcard discounts on the £15:70 return fare from Glasgow to Perth :-

It appears that the lack of Railcard discount for the CDR Glasgow Queen St - Perth has been raised with ScotRail in this exchange. An informed response is still awaited.

Today, I can see the Railcard discounted tickets ARE now available at £10:35 (I used the EastCoast website and tried with 16-25 and Senior Railcards).

 

[kendaldrac]

If wanted to make a couple of days exploring the central rail belt of Scotland then you could buy a Central Scotland Rover for only £36.30

http://www.scotrail.co.uk/content/central-scotland-rover-0

 

[railwayworker]

If anyone has any questions related to fares they are more than welcome to message me as I have the info to hand.

But yes 16-25 are valid after 10am Mon-Fri, Before 10am Minimum fare applies of £12 so be warey of the times you are traveling

 

[Forbes123]

Just out of curiosity is it still possible to travel round the full circle even if you're not coming from Edinburgh? In the past I have travelled from Dalgety Bay to Dunfermline Town and this has not been a problem but now that ScotRail have decided to split the circle I'm wondering if the validity of tickets wanting to cover the full circle has changed?
I am visiting Fife in July and just wanted to know if it would still be possible to make the journey via the full circle.

Many thanks

 

[yorkie]

In the past I have travelled from Dalgety Bay to Dunfermline Town and this has not been a problem but now that ScotRail have decided to split the circle I'm wondering if the validity of tickets wanting to cover the full circle has changed?

That depends on how you interpret Condition 3(a)(i) of the NRCoC:

3. The route you are entitled to take
(a) You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold in:
(i) a train on which you are able to make your entire journey without
changing trains;

If Scotrail agree that you do not need to "change trains", then it's valid. However the intention is that Scotrail believe you do need to "change trains".

If you can get documentation you're happy supports your view, and you are prepared to be a 'test case', go with it. If not, don't.

You could write to your MP about this, as Scotrail no longer want people to be able to make this journey on one train. Scotrail now want passengers to change platforms at Inverkeithing. This is particularly problematical for passengers with mobility issues, and/or luggage.

Scotrail's priority appears to be increasing revenue and putting people off travelling, and not providing convenience to their customers.

 

[najaB]

That depends on how you interpret Condition 3(a)(i) of the NRCoC:


If Scotrail agree that you do not need to "change trains", then it's valid. However the intention is that Scotrail believe you do need to "change trains".

If you can get documentation you're happy supports your view, and you are prepared to be a 'test case', go with it. If not, don't.

The National Rail journey planner says that Dalgety Bay to Dunfermline Town changing at Glenrothes is a valid route. For example, leaving Dalgety Bay at 0734, arriving at Glenrothes at 0806, then departing Glenrothes at 0808 to arrive Dunfermline at 0834.

That is the same physical train, the question is what do you have to do in order to 'change' at Glenrothes? Do I actually have to stand on the platform?

Ignore the above, I just realised that is sold as two single tickets.