Fictitious train time information

[JBuchananGB]

My daughter visited today from Stafford. Her journey to get here was trouble free. There were two options for the return.
(a) dep Southport (SOP) 16.32 to Wigan Wallgate 1705. Dep Wigan NW 1731 arrive Stafford 1822
(b) dep SOP 16.03 on Merseyrail, change onto Merseyrail to reach Liverpool South Parkway(LPY) 1711. Dep LPY 1718 arrive Stafford 1809.
She has embarked on option (b). All online timetables and departure boards showed the 16.32 SOP to Wigan as On Time until about 1630, when departure boards changed to "Delayed".
However, by monitoring Real Time Trains I could see that the inbound service to form the 1632 (2W18 from Manchester Oxford Road) had been cancelled. I drew my own conclusions and sent my daughter home via Liverpool.
But why does the system persist in claiming a train exists which doesn't exist?

 

[Freightmaster]

But why does the system persist in claiming a train exists which doesn't exist?

See here for a similar scenario:

Cancelled train displayed as on time at West Ruislip

I was hoping to catch the 08:59 West Ruislip to Marylebone (2H18) last Tuesday, 19th Nov and checked the National Rail website which said that it was on time, as did the indicator on West Ruislip Platform 4. I suspected that it might be late as there was no train in the platform and green signal...

www.railforums.co.uk

MARK

 

[Shrop]

Unless I'm mistaken, the information is pre-programmed to operate by computer control, and until such time as human intervention tells the system to change, it will continue to display what its programme tells it to.

A few weeks ago I was on the platform at Whitchurch (Shropshire) waiting for a train to Crewe, and watching Realtimetrains.co.uk (RTT) because I can often learn more from that, than the platform display is showing. RTT told me that a freight train was ahead of mine, but that this freight train hadn't even passed Wem, 9 miles away, and worse, that it hadn't moved for some time. Therefore, while our train was showing "On time", I already knew from RTT that it must be stuck behind a stopped freight train, giving a delay of 20 minutes at very least, and increasing all the time. This information must have been second nature for anyone with rail knowledge to work out, but passengers on the platform were being misled into believing that their train was running on time, right up until it was due, when the automated display changed to "Delayed".

So when the display says "On time", it actually means little more than that the train is due. I guess some stations have more regular inputs than Whitchurch, ie. better information, but this probably only applies to bigger stations on busier routes. Smaller stations where the next sizeable town is 20 miles away or more, seem to suffer from information which can be pretty unhelpful. I say this because some passengers might have chosen to make alternative arrangements if there hadn't been misleading information that their train was still running on time. What followed was another story!

Perhaps someone with more knowledge than my guesswork could advise?

 

[Trainguy34]

AFAIK if a train doesn't report for over 4 Mins longer then scheduled it automatically shows as "Delayed", the system won't know how late a train is until it passes a reporting point.

 

[Purple Train]

There was a similar situation at Sheffield with the 16.57 to Scarborough today. On time until it wasn't, then "delayed" interminably. It was advertised as platform 1, but the 17.31 to St Pancras was put in there instead. A quick check at RTT shows that the inbound service was cancelled, and that it seems to have run, albeit severely delayed, as far as Hull. I wonder what went on?

 

[JBuchananGB]

Real Time Trains was eventually updated to show the 1632 as cancelled. At least today there is complete transparency. Not a single train running between Southport and Wigan all day.

 

[The exile]

No one seems to have thought to explain to a computer that a train can’t leave on time if the stock to form it isn’t going to arrive until 20 minutes after it’s scheduled to leave. It’s a serious flaw with passenger information and the various bodies responsible should be given a deadline by the regulator to sort it out.

 

[Vexed]

No one seems to have thought to explain to a computer that a train can’t leave on time if the stock to form it isn’t going to arrive until 20 minutes after it’s scheduled to leave. It’s a serious flaw with passenger information and the various bodies responsible should be given a deadline by the regulator to sort it out.

Not necessarily. Darwin (the theoretical one source of truth of passenger information) allows for associations to be made between services, then it will automatically delay the next service based on the expected arrival time + a fixed turnaround time. This can be overridden by staff in control. Unfortunately some (many) operators don't regularly add associations to Darwin.

For example for 2H47 from Waterloo today, scheduled for 16:42, Darwin predicted a departure of 16:44 at 16:10 then:
- updated to a forecast of 16:47 at 16:24
- updated to a forecast of 16:48 at 16:26
- updated to a forecast of 16:47 at 16:31,
- updated to a forecast of 16:49 at 16:42.
It eventually left at 16:49 (by RTT's berth offsets, Darwin's berth offsets put it at 16:48).

So there is already the software around to do this, it just needs every operator to regularly add associations to Darwin. We can only hope!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2024 ==

Just to clarify Darwin powers passenger information boards at every station, plus live departures in almost every app/website except RealTime Trains, Open Train Times and other TRUST-based ones. If it says powered by National Rail Enquiries somewhere this means Darwin.

 

[The exile]

Not necessarily. Darwin (the theoretical one source of truth of passenger information) allows for associations to be made between services, then it will automatically delay the next service based on the expected arrival time + a fixed turnaround time. This can be overridden by staff in control. Unfortunately some (many) operators don't regularly add associations to Darwin.

For example for 2H47 from Waterloo today, scheduled for 16:42, Darwin predicted a departure of 16:44 at 16:10 then:
- updated to a forecast of 16:47 at 16:24
- updated to a forecast of 16:48 at 16:26
- updated to a forecast of 16:47 at 16:31,
- updated to a forecast of 16:49 at 16:42.
It eventually left at 16:49 (by RTT's berth offsets, Darwin's berth offsets put it at 16:48).

So there is already the software around to do this, it just needs every operator to regularly add associations to Darwin. We can only hope!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2024 ==

Just to clarify Darwin powers passenger information boards at every station, plus live departures in almost every app/website except RealTime Trains, Open Train Times and other TRUST-based ones. If it says powered by National Rail Enquiries somewhere this means Darwin.

Exactly my point - it can be done, but providing accurate information to the public in a timely manner (ie platform changes before the train is drawing alongside the new platform) is obviously so low on some operators’ priority lists that no one can be bothered to do it. Hence my comment about the regulator requiring them to do it!

 

[Trainman40083]

I used to see the situation commuting between Derby and Crewe. My train home, circa 16.07 often showed "on time". But the inbound was late. I used to use real time trains etc to decide when to leave work. If it ran late, and left Stoke for Crewe, one time. If it looked likely to turn at Stoke, then I'd go for the 16.02 London Midland to Stoke that would get to Stoke in time for the Stoke to Derby service, rather than stop in Crewe for an extra hour

 

[Deepgreen]

No one seems to have thought to explain to a computer that a train can’t leave on time if the stock to form it isn’t going to arrive until 20 minutes after it’s scheduled to leave. It’s a serious flaw with passenger information and the various bodies responsible should be given a deadline by the regulator to sort it out.

Indeed - there are so many impossibilities in 'the system' that a thorough review seems appropriate.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 26 Nov 2024 ==

Exactly my point - it can be done, but providing accurate information to the public in a timely manner (ie platform changes before the train is drawing alongside the new platform) is obviously so low on some operators’ priority lists that no one can be bothered to do it. Hence my comment about the regulator requiring them to do it!

It is low on their list of priorities because passenger information accuracy is either not a contractually-chargeable factor in their operations, or is so leniently penalised that it is ignored. Given that good old pride in the job has all but vanished from our railways, it cannot be relied on for people to do this unless they are financially-incentivised. What a state.

 

[Vexed]

Hence my comment about the regulator requiring them to do it!

Sorry if my post came off badly, it can be hard tell with just text and exclamation marks can have different meanings .

It's a simple, easy thing to do as the data already exists in other systems. It's pathetic that associations aren't universal. The whole point in Darwin is to improve passenger experience and dropping off boards at departure time with no other info in situations like this is avoidable and goes against this.

Darwin has the potential to be a great system if used properly by TOCs, so a review into it's usage (or lack of!) would be good. Hopefully this is something GBR can improve on.

 

[Trainman40083]

I had a situation at Derby, where I was going to Cardiff. I had planned to catch the 07.27 XC to Bristol Parkway, then change to GWR . Station displays came up showing it late, then delayed....I then looked at Open Train Times or Traksy and noticed that train had been diverted via the Erewash Valley ( So Darwin would not know where the train had gone, nor what time it would arrive. It just knew it wasn't where it should be). Anyway, having seen that, I jumped on the 07.38 Turbostar to Cardiff. At least I was on the move.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I'm grateful for everyone's comments. As an old IT guy, I can understand what the automated system is doing for lack on information. I was monitoring the Southport to Wigan departure board on Sunday, when no actual trains ran. Seemingly everything was cancelled due to short notice change to the timetable. But one plausible train did actually appear on the departure board, purporting to be a Todmorden departure which was going to terminate short at Wigan Wallgate. Displayed "On Time" then "Delayed" then disappeared.