FGW train stranded at Pewsey

[AlterEgo]

BBC R4 news this morning reported that someone missed their flight to Singapore because of the breakdown and massive delay.

Delay repay could be the least of their worries if a few Heathrow long-haul passengers missed their flights.

There are dozens, or hundreds of people every day who miss flights owing to train delays and cancellations. The NRCoC makes it quite clear that train companies are not liable for any additional costs or consequential losses as a result of any train cancellation.

Reimbursing this kind of expense usually falls to the travel insurance provider.

 

[4SRKT]

Seem to remember that Thomas's (was it?) train had leak in brake pipe and whilst the guard had some brown paper to cover the leak a posh passenger with long bootlaces was not prepared to let the guard have them to tie the brown paper over the leak. So no one was wearing long bootlaces on the HST?

Obviously all slip on shoe wearers in FGW land.

In the story in question, at least in the original draft I had as a child, the Rev Awdry indulged in the most extraordinary piece of anti-Semitism by naming the reluctant donator of the leather bootlace as "a very mean old man called Jeremiah Jobling". Wow. I wonder/doubt if that is in current editions!

 

[Antman]

Don't be so stupid! We are only human and if anyone genuinely thinks that the crew will just spend six hours sunbathing, chatting and smoking then let them think it-I wouldn't waste my breath trying to explain things to those kinds if people. Most will know they were working and appreciate a cigarette and wee break in 6 hours isn't bad going (most office workers take far more fag and loo breaks!)

I'm bored of this thread, as I thought, since I went to bed none if the posts have made any sense and have just been stupid and very ill informed rants.

The staff on here have explained the issues and no one has listened as you all think you know best. Perhaps you should all apply for rail jobs as you seem to believe you are all experts and know what needs to be done. Then when this happens to you you will find yourself in the firing line.

Let those of us who know what we are on about withdraw and it can become another railUK spotters fantasy thread. The rail industry didn't want to see these situations any more than you lot do but do you really think that the quite basic ideas being spouted on here haven't been considered, tried and tested already? And proved not to work so been dropped in favour of others?

Quite simply there are people on here who have issues with being told what to do. They think that paying for a train ticket entitles them to make decisions during disruption and that a big problem and very selfish. 500 people could be stranded on a train whilst thousands more continue their journeys. If those 500 selfish people decide they are above waiting and evacuate the train then all the other trains have to be stopped stranding possibly thousands more whilst the police etc get people off the tracks.

Conditions were not that bad onboard this train-they had basic toilet facilities for emergencies, food & water for a time (no one died or went to hospital so there was obviously enough) and there was light and aircon.

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy having a good laugh at the rest of the posts on here for now.

Its the staff that were being stupid, they don't do themselves any favours. Of course they're entitled to break and a fag but there are ways and means of going about it. Staff stood around smoking.and looking like the couldn't care less......well put yourself in the passengers position.
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It's for their own good though...

Ok, that probably sounds rather high handed, but the idea of making people walk over a wet railway to wait for onward road transport that might take ages to arrive, probably without refreshments or a comfortable place to sit down seems a lot worse than waiting for a couple more hours.

Seriously, as long as I had fresh air (which is fine on a HST), then I'd choose to stay on the train every time.

Ok I realise the comment wasn't entirely serious

Nice as HST's are I would be looking at other options, obviously depending on the location

 

[4SRKT]

There are dozens, or hundreds of people every day who miss flights owing to train delays and cancellations. The NRCoC makes it quite clear that train companies are not liable for any additional costs or consequential losses as a result of any train cancellation.

Reimbursing this kind of expense usually falls to the travel insurance provider.

Thereby increasing travel insurance costs to all of us through TOC uselessness. A system that helps to breed the 'can't be arsed'/'it's not really a problem' attitude so eloquently described upthread. One less reason for TOCs to move Heaven and Earth to sort out delays if a significant proportion of the cost is being met through the premiums of everyone who ever buys travel insurance.

 

[Goatboy]

Thereby increasing travel insurance costs to all of us through TOC uselessness.

Or throuhg airline uselessness or through car reliability uselessless etc etc

 

[4SRKT]

Or throuhg airline uselessness or through car reliability uselessless etc etc

Indeed, but two (or three) wrongs don't make a right. Hand washing by saying 'other things go wrong, so why should we care? Someone (everyone) else is picking up the tab'

 

[broadgage]

Illegal to smoke in the workplace

Is it ?
I thought that only smoking in an ENCLOSED workplaces was prohibited by law.
AFAIK, a street sweeper, farm worker, or gardener may lawfully smoke whilst working in the open air. (in some cases the employers may prohibit smoking, but that is an employers rule, not the law of the land)

 

[Antman]

Is it ?
I thought that only smoking in an ENCLOSED workplaces was prohibited by law.
AFAIK, a street sweeper, farm worker, or gardener may lawfully smoke whilst working in the open air. (in some cases the employers may prohibit smoking, but that is an employers rule, not the law of the land)

That sounds about right

 

[broadgage]

Thanks for replies.

i have to use the train for the journey I need to take.

Does anyone else know if they can be opened manually?

Yes, but you would probably be liable to prosecution if you used the emergency door release without good reason.

The doors on an HST are normaly locked until released by the crew, but there is a means of emergency opening, instructions are printed on or next to the means of emergency opening, together with a warning as to the penalties for misuse.

 

[A-driver]

Can someone please tell me what would have been wrong with detaching the power car as soon as the fitter arrived and sending the rest of the set on its way, then removing it as soon as the locomotive became available?

I am willing to answer this as its a sensible question and not a silly comment.

At what point did the fitter isolate the fault to just the power car? I don't know anything about HSTs but on some units it's a long process to track down the exact location. Splitting it off would only be considered as a last resort after they have attempted to actually fix it. I would imagine, based on experience of this kind of thing, that once the finally managed to confirm the fault was isolated to the rear power car they took the decision pretty quickly to split it off and leave it behind.

I can't honestly for a single second believe that within the first 5 minutes they realised it only affected the rear car and just sat there for 6 hours knowing full well that it could be split off before making the decision. If they had diagnosed the fault fully sooner then action would have been taken sooner but like anything mechanical, tracking down and isolating a fault can take a long time, especially if an unusual
Fault. They will have followed various fault flow charts etc but not every possibility can always be fully covered by the manuals.

 

[starrymarkb]

Thereby increasing travel insurance costs to all of us through TOC uselessness. A system that helps to breed the 'can't be arsed'/'it's not really a problem' attitude so eloquently described upthread. One less reason for TOCs to move Heaven and Earth to sort out delays if a significant proportion of the cost is being met through the premiums of everyone who ever buys travel insurance.

Another way to look at it is all rail/coach fares increase to cover the risk of having to pay for a BA First Class to Sydney etc in case of Accident on the M4/Broken down train.

And if your flight is late so you miss a train/coach the airline will not pay, or if you have split airline tickets. I remember reading a airliner basher trip report where a connecting flight was not held and while the airline offered to get the author to the split point late that evening, but of course he'd then be stranded because his afternoon flight with $rareairline will have already gone. He ended up paying for the ferry back to Helsinki and having to write off about €150 of airfare.

A week's travel insurance with decent cover will cost you less then £20. In the context of of a £1000 holiday/trip I'd say it's worth while!

 

[A-driver]

Its the staff that were being stupid, they don't do themselves any favours. Of course they're entitled to break and a fag but there are ways and means of going about it. Staff stood around smoking.and looking like the couldn't care less......well put yourself in the passengers position.
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Are you serious? I doubt they were even taking a beak (I certainly wouldn't in that situation). More likely they had a fag hanging out their mouth whilst working on the fault, speaking to control/the signaller on the phone/talking to each other about what was going on etc.

I can assure you they didn't all say 'let's take a 20min break from all this!

And we are going by what someone wrote in the evening standard-chances are he was just trying to have a go at staff knowing full well they wernt doing anything wrong!

And I'll put myself in the passengers position-I honestly don't think as a passenger that there is anything wrong with them having a cigarette whilst working outside. If I see a dust man walking between bins with a fag I don't immediately think 'lazy bin man taking a break'-do you?!

 

[broadgage]

Seem to remember that Thomas's (was it?) train had leak in brake pipe and whilst the guard had some brown paper to cover the leak a posh passenger with long bootlaces was not prepared to let the guard have them to tie the brown paper over the leak. So no one was wearing long bootlaces on the HST?

Joking apart, old trains used vaccuum brakes, and leaking pipes could be temporarily repaired in all sorts of ways, including brown paper and boot laces I suspect ! The vaccuum would tend to hold any temporary patching or repair material in place.

Modern trains use compressed air and leaks are far more diffecult to repair even as a short term bodge. The air pressure tends to blow off any patching or repair material.
Leaks can sometimes be repaired with adhesive rubber tape, held in place against air pressure by large numbers of Jubilee hose clips, binding with wire, or strong cable ties. A leak at the end of an air hose can sometimes be rectified by cutting away the leaking part and remaking the connection.

 

[KA4C]

My god, is this one still going around in circles? how about we wait for FGW and NR to investigate rather than try to sort the job out ourselves?

 

[A-driver]

My god, is this one still going around in circles? how about we wait for FGW and NR to investigate rather than try to sort the job out ourselves?

Don't be silly-FGW and NR don't have a clue-have you not realised that yet from this thread?

We need all the experts on here who would have had the train repaired and moved within minutes to come up with the report-they know far more about what happened and what should have been done than you or I or than anyone who was actually working at the scene or at FGW/NR control.

And let's hope the driver is sacked for weeing in a field and smoking whilst, according to the evening standard, looking for mobile phone signal. Lazy git. He should certainly have either wet himself or held it in for hours.

 

[brompton rail]

Anyone explain how an HST power car is detached from the train, please.

 

[carriageline]

Having read a copy of the control log, it isn't as clear cut as the oh great travelling public would have you think it was.

A whole mirage of problems led to the minutes quickly ticking by. As usual, the normal suspects (a-driver, 455driver etc) are/were right.

When will this place learn!

 

[A-driver]

Anyone explain how an HST power car is detached from the train, please.

The same way any carriage is detached from a train? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

 

[Antman]

Are you serious? I doubt they were even taking a beak (I certainly wouldn't in that situation). More likely they had a fag hanging out their mouth whilst working on the fault, speaking to control/the signaller on the phone/talking to each other about what was going on etc.

I can assure you they didn't all say 'let's take a 20min break from all this!

And we are going by what someone wrote in the evening standard-chances are he was just trying to have a go at staff knowing full well they wernt doing anything wrong!

And I'll put myself in the passengers position-I honestly don't think as a passenger that there is anything wrong with them having a cigarette whilst working outside. If I see a dust man walking between bins with a fag I don't immediately think 'lazy bin man taking a break'-do you?!

You're missing the point, and wouldn't having a fag in their mouth whilst working on a fault be potentially dangerous? Go and have a fag one at a time out of public view like a police officer would.
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My god, is this one still going around in circles? how about we wait for FGW and NR to investigate rather than try to sort the job out ourselves?

OMG isn't that what forums like this are for? Reading it is of course optional:roll:

 

[A-driver]

You're missing the point, and wouldn't having a fag in their mouth whilst working on a fault be potentially dangerous? Go and have a fag one at a time out of public view like a police officer would.
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OMG isn't that what forums like this are for? Reading it is of course optional:roll:

Potentially dangerous? How? I'm guessing he was wise enough not to be leaning over a fuel tank whilst smoking-what is so dangerous about smoking whilst talking on a phone etc? And you would prefer him to walk somewhere away from view, further delaying things to have a fag break rather than just having a smoke whilst working? You are, to be honest, just being awkward and clearly have nothing to add to this debate so choose to staff bash based on an evening standard report instead.

 

[KA4C]

OMG isn't that what forums like this are for? Reading it is of course optional:roll:

As I said, it has been discussed and is now going round and round getting nowhere. given that no one here was actually there or involved how much further can the thread go?

 

[transmanche]

A whole mirage of problems led to the minutes quickly ticking by. As usual, the normal suspects (a-driver, 455driver etc) are/were right.

So similar to the Kentish Town incident then? So why weren't the lessons learned from that debacle put into action this time?

 

[brompton rail]

The same way any carriage is detached from a train? I'm not sure I understand what you mean?

I was hoping someone could describe the process, step by step.

 

[broadgage]

Anyone explain how an HST power car is detached from the train, please.

It is slightly more complex than uncoupling a hauled coach, on account of various power and control cables that have to be unplugged, as well as air brake connections and the coupling itself.

Not a particulary complex job though for suitably experienced staff.
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Potentially dangerous? How? I'm guessing he was wise enough not to be leaning over a fuel tank whilst smoking-what is so dangerous about smoking whilst talking on a phone etc? And you would prefer him to walk somewhere away from view, further delaying things to have a fag break rather than just having a smoke whilst working? You are, to be honest, just being awkward and clearly have nothing to add to this debate so choose to staff bash based on an evening standard report instead.

It would be best to keep away from fuel tanks when smoking, just in case, but remember that diesel fuel is not voltatile and is hard to ignite in liquid form.

It is similar in degree of risk to cooking oil, and people not only smoke when handling cooking oil, but even use cooking oil in kitchens, near open flames !

 

[KA4C]

Having read a copy of the control log, it isn't as clear cut as the oh great travelling public would have you think it was.

A whole mirage of problems led to the minutes quickly ticking by. As usual, the normal suspects (a-driver, 455driver etc) are/were right.

When will this place learn!

Having found out that driver involved is a friend of mine, it seems that he injured himself whilst going to and fro along the cess

 

[Antman]

Potentially dangerous? How? I'm guessing he was wise enough not to be leaning over a fuel tank whilst smoking-what is so dangerous about smoking whilst talking on a phone etc? And you would prefer him to walk somewhere away from view, further delaying things to have a fag break rather than just having a smoke whilst working? You are, to be honest, just being awkward and clearly have nothing to add to this debate so choose to staff bash based on an evening standard report instead.

I can assure you I am not being awkward, its just the image of staff standing around smoking, anyway enough said
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Having found out that driver involved is a friend of mine, it seems that he injured himself whilst going to and fro along the cess

Nothing serious I hope?

 

[KA4C]

Nothing serious I hope?

Twisted ankle but it don't half slow you down

 

[curly42]

I too have read the control log on this incident,and it is certainly not the simple scenario that has been presented so far.
There have been numerous attempts from qualified railway staff to explain the situation - most of which have been poo-poohed by the armchair experts.
Wait until the enquiry publishes its findings.

 

[3141]

Some of what follows has probably been said already, so apologies for any repetition.

It makes sense at the start of an incident to follow the normal procedures in the expectation that advice to the driver, or the arrival of a fitter at the site, will get the problem solved.

But at an early stage those in charge should start thinking “What else are we going to do if we can’t solve it reasonably quickly and the train is stuck there for hours?” They can find out how many people are on the train and can work out what problems are going to develop there, like a lack of drinking water and the toilets no longer working normally.

Then they should arrange to get supplies to the site and rescue the passengers. This shouldn’t be left until after some hours have passed and it has become clear that the problem cannot be rectified by a fitter.

As someone said earlier, FGW will be holding meetings to determine how this incident was handled and why it lasted so long. It seems likely that one of the factors will be the attitude of the people taking the decisions. Were they flexible, realising that they might need to put alternative plans into action, or did they rely on the normal procedures to lead to a solution, and a consequent six-hour delay when no alternatives were ready?

The question of whether passengers should be able to get off the train is almost incidental. As has been said, some would find it difficult and wouldn’t be able to walk very far. Others would have no problem and at least could stretch their legs and get some fresh air.

The different attitudes about how to deal with a situation which turns out to be much worse than seemed likely at first have been well illustrated by posters on this thread and the related one.

 

[talltim]

The issue isn't that it took a long time to fix the problem, I work in a problem solving environment and can understand the "oh, this will fix it in ten minutes, oh no, it wasn't that" feeling. However as some other have said (strangely not rail staff), those on the outside (i.e. not the train crew, fitters etc) should have been mobilising other options as the time was ticking by. No you don't bring it the sherpas and helicopter rescue ten minutes in, but you do for example, think about getting some supplies onto a passing train 2 hours in, if the fault gets fixed before it gets there then you just don't use them.
From the outside it doesn't appear that any contingency plans were started, let alone used. Start the procedures rolling, supplies, staff, other transport, and if the fault gets fixed than cancel them

After the Thameslink passenger escape incident, the risk of similar happening should assessed with to be included in the plans for dealing with similar situations. (e.g. after on hour 1% chance, after 4 hours 5% chance, DOO train increase chance by 2%, etc) Passengers shouldn't do it, but the risk that they will needs to be allowed for,