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FGW to pull out of Brighton?

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Greenback

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If the FGW trains are full at commuter times with relatively short distance passnegers, then that is a good reason why they should be providied by the local TOC, leaving FGW to cater for long distance travellers and locals in the GW area! These services are only in the franchise because BR ran through trains, they have not been recently introduced as an ORCATS raid!

The SWT services west of Exeter were withdrawn as the stock would be better utilised on providing better services along the SWT line. What's the difference here? FGW has had to run extra services in place of the SWT ones, why can't the same thing happen?
 
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Aictos

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If the FGW trains are full at commuter times with relatively short distance passnegers, then that is a good reason why they should be providied by the local TOC, leaving FGW to cater for long distance travellers and locals in the GW area! These services are only in the franchise because BR ran through trains, they have not been recently introduced as an ORCATS raid!

The SWT services west of Exeter were withdrawn as the stock would be better utilised on providing better services along the SWT line. What's the difference here? FGW has had to run extra services in place of the SWT ones, why can't the same thing happen?

My thoughts exactly, but if FGW withdrew from Brighton and reduced the service as a Southampton Central to Bristol Parkway service leaving Southern and South West Trains to pick up the local traffic between Brighton and Southampton Central which would in turn better utilise the FGW trains on their core routes more or less.

Okay this might mean no more trips to the seaside for Westbury FGW crews but it will worth it in the long run.

The main point is the service ie the 0900 FGW Brighton to Great Malvern takes 5h 37m to complete, is there any other way of speeding up the journey and making better use of the capacity available?



as the main from Brighton to Bristol running and concentrated on their core routes leaving
 

devon_metro

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The SWT services west of Exeter were withdrawn as the stock would be better utilised on providing better services along the SWT line. What's the difference here? FGW has had to run extra services in place of the SWT ones, why can't the same thing happen?

It's a shame that SWT has an unnecessarily large DMU fleet, and meant that the FGW fleet was further stretched having to provide trains west of Exeter, not to mention the inconvenience for the number of passengers who travelled to destinations south of Exeter direct.
 
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FGW won't be pulling out of Brighton and it's highly unlikely that the 180's will be returning to FGW either, nor will SWT won't be shrinking their fleet as they need all of their stock not only to maintain their services as they are, but to allow for the maintenance of the fleets.

So all in all this thread is a complete waste of time, hypothetical or not.
 

Ivo

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Well, at least it;s been fun reading the new imaginary timetables!

So where's the one created by our resident chippy fan then? :D

Here's a completely pointless and unworkable, yet amusing, idea. I want to see if anyone can trump this.

SWT get two 180s and run the Bristol - Waterloo services independently of the rest of the Salisbury services.
FGW start an express service serving only Bristol, Bath, Westbury and Salisbury, and then Southampton, Havant, Worthing and Brighton, again using two 180s.
I buy the fifth 180 for £1.80 and use it as I please.
 
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swt_passenger

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The way this thread has developed is exactly as you'd expect for a 'what if' suggestion. But perhaps the original title could have been clearer - as it reads you'd think it was discussing a firmer proposal...
 

Ricardo

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As a new forum member and also a regular user of the Pompey-Cardiff service, I simply cant resist replying to this thread, with a slightly more realistic proposal which wouldnt involve use of 180s (hint: put them on Manchester-Glasgow/Edinburgh!) and wouldnt require vast extra resources to improve the route!

I agree with the posters who think FGW should withdraw from Brighton- I've thought this for several years now. Whilst I am sure it does not make commercial sense for FGW to withdraw (ORCATS raids etc), the stock used on Brighton services could be put to better use elsewhere on FGW routes as has been pointed out throughout the thread.

I have not looked into the exact diagramming for these services but a quick review of the timetable would suggest (perhaps with some creativity on the part of FGW) that axing Brighton services could release two 158 units for other uses.

What to do with these trains? Well, two units could admittedly be very handy for providing a two-hourly Salisbury-Swindon via Melksham service, say. This is certainly one option which should not be disregarded, but would bring with it extra staff costs, marketing costs, etc. Yes, these costs are relatively small, but we are now in an age of public sector austerity where really only the cheapest options will be acceptable to decisionmakers. Also, in my opinion, a route, at least between urban centres, isnt likely to attract car users (or even bus users) unless it has an hourly or better frequency, and you cant do this between Swindon and Salisbury with only two units!

As has rightly been pointed out, there is a lot of pressure on the Portsmouth-Cardiff route. The overcrowding problem is worst between Southampton and Bristol. The existing 3 car 158s seem to cope fine between Portsmouth & Southampton (busy but not standing,even in the peaks) and also Bristol-Cardiff.

So to me, the ideal use of 2x 158s is to use them to strengthen Portsmouth-Cardiff services between (ideally) Southampton and Bristol, or, between Salisbury & Bristol if splitting & joining of carriages at Southampton Central is too difficult 9see later in my reply).

This might (just) be possible to do using the existing timetable PMH-CDF with a few tweaks. At the Bristol end, services on the regular interval timetable arrive at xx48 from Portsmouth, and depart to Portsmouth at xx23. As trains reverse at Bristol, there is a station stop of several minutes for drivers to change end etc, during which time a split/join operation could be done without significant detriment to the existing timetable. Platform occupancy at Bristol does not seem to be an issue (some platforms seem to only be used once every few hours!) so leaving a unit on a platform for 35 minutes between journeys is probably not a problem.

At the Southampton end, things would be much more difficult- services to Portsmouth arrive at xx04, whilst trains northbound leave at xx10. This 6 minute turnaround is clearly not sufficient to detach a unit, have the southbound service go forward to Portsmouth, and then have the northbound service arrive and attach, let alone be robust in the event of late running.

However my observations of the Southampton-Bristol ops suggest that station dwell times are extended due to overcrowing and slow boarding/alighting from 158s – not enough doors to handle all the people! By operating 5 car trains on the core section, it might be possible to trim a minute from dwell times at Bath, Trowbridge, Warminster, Salisbury and improve reliability/ reduce recovery time. Throw in some timetabling sleight of hand (or dare I say it, axe a stop) and I reckon you could save enough time each way to enable perhaps a 12 or 15 minute turnaround at Southampton for the extra unit, which might be enough.

Of course there are other problems at Soton Ctl including high platform occupancy and a regular tendency for knock-on delays (not enough platforms, and the tunnel doesnt help) . It might not be possible to do such splits/ joins at Southampton, in which case I guess strengthening between Salisbury & Bristol would be the way forward.

A quick play with the existing timetable shows that on the hourly interval timetable, about half of all Portsmouth-Cardiff trains on the regulr hourly interval could strengthened between Southampton and Bristol. I've not done the maths for Salisbury, but probably 2/3 of trains could become 5 cars Salisbry-Bristol.

Although there woul;d be challenges to address with this arrangement, the advantages as I see it are:

  • Use of the split/join capability of DMUs
  • No extra staffing costs
  • Extra capacity (more than a 180 could provide!) where its really needed, ie Bristol-Southampton
  • Using resources to support an existing market with proven suppressed demand, rather than on some commercially risky and operationally difficult extra service which the DfT simply wouldnt approve inour current dire economic straits

Regarding Southampton-Brighton services, this corridor is sees an OK service from Southern nowadays, so the importance of the FGW services is much less than it once was. The AM Portsmouth-Brighton FGW service is noted in the Sussex RUS as struggling to provide capacity between Worthing and Brighton.

To replace this, Southern could probably provide an AM Portsmouth-Brighton train (probably a 3 or 4 car 377) through diagramming changes alone.

As far as use of 180s on Portsmouth-Cardiff are concerned, well the route doesnt have the linespeed or characteristics to really justify their use.....though in an ideal world I would love to see them at Southampton Central!

Jeez, I never intended that reply to become such an essay!
 

Ivo

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This whole thread was only an aspiration in the first place. So given that there was no real backing to it, aren't we entitled to a bit of imagination and/or amusement?

Anyway, in response to Ricardo (welcome by the way), the only concern is that two units won't make much difference, even if they operate the Melksham line. It would have little if any effect on improving passenger flows on the Wessex Main Line, and would also potentially lead to the displacement of the units which already serve Melksham. What would happen to them? If they are stabled, we have literally a couple of extra units now available - i.e. no gain at all. But I strongly agree with an improved service to Melksham; mind you, the station - sorry, halt - is looking a bit pathetic!
 

DJ_K666

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Most services on the West Coastway are some kind of slow Semi-fast service. Not all that many stop at all stations. presumably this was to speed up services. In fact, the smallest stations like Aldrington, Fishersgate, East Worthing, Durrington, Goring etc now only get a half hourly service off peak and probably not much better during peaks, as opposed to the previous basic 20 minute service that (I would consider) to be the minumum acceptable on a line like this. There is very little room for any fast services at all as they would inevitably become stuck behind slower services at some point. Also there is very little in the way of loops, the only ones being at Hove (Bi-directional platform 1) and Worthing (Up loop, seems very rarely used now). There was one at Ford, so now the first loop after Hove is Barnham (and what a mess they've made of that, now the signal box has gone)

That journey was much more fun in a 33 with 5 or so mk1 coaches behind it. it didn't stop at Shoreham in those days so we had to get the train about 20 minutes ahead and change at Worthing which was the first stop out of Brighton. The Newport to Cwmbran train would usually be the 108 up the Welsh Marches line, great fun when you could see out the front, even if it was only for 10 minutes or so. Much superior trains back then.
 

Ricardo

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Also there is very little in the way of loops, the only ones being at Hove (Bi-directional platform 1) and Worthing (Up loop, seems very rarely used now). There was one at Ford, so now the first loop after Hove is Barnham (and what a mess they've made of that, now the signal box has gone)


Lack of passing loops- a big problem for scheduling on the west coastway line, and as is rightly pointed out, something which gets in the way of running proper "fast" services. Going back a few years, I recall the Worthing loop was primarily used for services terminating at Worthing, but services now terminate at West Worthing and hang out in the sidings there for their next turn east. So what does Worhing Loop actually get used for - could it be used for better scheduling?

Anyway, coming back on topic, and Ivo's response, yes, I agree that two extra units isnt much in the greater scheme of things, but could be very useful on the wessex mainline.

Off-peak, 3 cars is just about suffucient Soton-Bristol, but in the peaks there is a serious need for more capacity. As noted previously, if you could strengthen to 5 cars key services throughout the day (by my estimation, you could strengthen half of all services during the hourly daytime timetable, as well as a couple of morning peak trains) this could considerably improve conditions on services which suffer serious crowding, such as the 1723 Bristol-Portsmouth. Whilst the diagramming and scheduling changes needed for this might be quite tricky (especially at the Southampton end) they really shouldnt be insurmountable and do provide extra capacity where it is needed most - without requiring any extra investment, subsidy or (probably) staff resources.

By providing extra capacity at key times, you allow a) a more comfortable journey for existing users, and b) encourage further growth on the route which is currently suppressed due to lack of capacity. I'm not talking revolutionary steps here, rather pragmatic and feasible steps to take the edge off a problem which we dont have the resources to fully solve at present.

All of which make it a more politically and financially acceptable scheme in the current climate than desirable schemes such as (Salisbury)-Warminster-Melksham-Swindon, which I agree should be done, but probably won't be easily justified until the state of public finances improves.

Also Ivo, I dont see how use of 2x extra 158s for strengthening as proposed would impinge on the two Pacer/ 153 operated services at Melksham that currently run?
 

Ivo

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I've never seen a Pacer on a Melksham service before. I have seen 153s a few times, indeed, until I actually used the route last week I had assumed that the line was a 153 exclusive area. To be honest, I can't remember why I put that. All I would say is that a 2-hourly 153 should suffice on the route, so the Brighton stock would be available.
 

Ricardo

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I travelled on a Pacer Swindon-Trowbridge on the only occasion I've actually travelled on that line, though that was a few years ago now (back when here were 4 or 5 daily services). Felt rather silly at Chippenham on a pacer whilst an HST went past in the other direction!

Now the services have been cut back, I would imagine demand only requires use of a 153.

Yes, Melksham station did look rather sorry for itself. A 2-hourly 153 would suffice as a start. In the long run, I'm fairly sure the service could be successful as an hourly link to Swindon. But I just cant see the DfT backing such a service until there is more cash and stock available - until that time, expect to see responses to existing problems, using existing resources favoured- if anything gets done at all.

Although it isnt as sexy as running long distance trains to London, could setting up a decent Swindon-Westbury/ Salisbury service be something for an open access operator to take a stab at, if they can prove to the ORR that the route can't/won't be pursued through the franchise process for some time?
 

DJ_K666

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Lack of passing loops- a big problem for scheduling on the west coastway line, and as is rightly pointed out, something which gets in the way of running proper "fast" services. Going back a few years, I recall the Worthing loop was primarily used for services terminating at Worthing, but services now terminate at West Worthing and hang out in the sidings there for their next turn east. So what does Worhing Loop actually get used for - could it be used for better scheduling?

Anyway, coming back on topic, and Ivo's response, yes, I agree that two extra units isnt much in the greater scheme of things, but could be very useful on the wessex mainline.

Off-peak, 3 cars is just about suffucient Soton-Bristol, but in the peaks there is a serious need for more capacity. As noted previously, if you could strengthen to 5 cars key services throughout the day (by my estimation, you could strengthen half of all services during the hourly daytime timetable, as well as a couple of morning peak trains) this could considerably improve conditions on services which suffer serious crowding, such as the 1723 Bristol-Portsmouth. Whilst the diagramming and scheduling changes needed for this might be quite tricky (especially at the Southampton end) they really shouldnt be insurmountable and do provide extra capacity where it is needed most - without requiring any extra investment, subsidy or (probably) staff resources.

By providing extra capacity at key times, you allow a) a more comfortable journey for existing users, and b) encourage further growth on the route which is currently suppressed due to lack of capacity. I'm not talking revolutionary steps here, rather pragmatic and feasible steps to take the edge off a problem which we dont have the resources to fully solve at present.

All of which make it a more politically and financially acceptable scheme in the current climate than desirable schemes such as (Salisbury)-Warminster-Melksham-Swindon, which I agree should be done, but probably won't be easily justified until the state of public finances improves.

Also Ivo, I dont see how use of 2x extra 158s for strengthening as proposed would impinge on the two Pacer/ 153 operated services at Melksham that currently run?

The Worthing loop was used for the joining of London services. The portion from Littlehampton would come in first and then the one from Southampton. This meant that the pipes could be undone from Platform 3 when they came to split the train on its return journey without going near the live rail. Given there are no bagpipes on the trains this is no longer necessary. Last time I went through Worthing the rails in the loop were quite rusty, meaning that it hadn't been used for quite a while.

As for the Melksham service. Surely the savings made on withdrawing the 158 from Brighton would pay for a service between Westbury and Swindon. Another unit could join onto the back of the train for the most heavily loaded runs. Surely there are a few spare class 159 centre cars sitting around that could be re-allocated and modified? This would give a couple of 3 car units allowing the extra driving cars to be formed into additional units while not reducing capacity on the Pompey - Bristol/Cardiff services. Either that or some Leeds area 3 car units could be sent down in a cascade at some point.
 

anthony263

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During the off peak are there not any spare stock stabled at Bristol Tm or westbury which may be able to be used to rovide a service through Melksham?

I am sure that when London Midland ran their brief service Between Worcester & Gloucester that the class 170 which was used would have just been stabled during the day.
 

Ivo

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For the most part, yes! I can occasionally be found on either c2c or (less often) SWT, specifically for either my true home or my father/uncle, but FGW are far and away my primary TOC these days. I may even be relying on them to take away some of the Summer Void... sigh... Nothing to do, yet here until August 5 (barring a week at home and a probable week in Southport - damn, two weeks in "South-" seaside resorts!)...

I have actually done a whole timetable before now, but it was somewhat optimistic. It had a fifteen minute service on the Severn Beach Line for heaven's sake! Another idea I've had is to change the Bath HST service to the non-Didcot terminating at Bristol TM, as present, and the Didcot stopper extended to either Weston-s-M or Cardiff (Rhoose if the loading gauge is usable and the airport sorts out the transfer situation)...

Delusional indeed :D

I'd be quite happy to work with others on getting a decent timetable going. I've even made fictional LUL-style Working Timetables before (bloody difficult, that!), so I know where I'm going with them. Maybe FGW will take note :D
 
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