FGW to pull out of Brighton?

[TheWalrus]

Hi all

With a reasonable amount of overcrowding happening on the FGW West network (particularly around Exeter and Bristol), it may be necessary to concentrate their fleet on their core routes (like VXC in 2003). To combat the overcrowding, services to/from Brighton could be pulled back to Westbury, or diverted to Weymouth in order to provide a more frequent and higher capacity service on this line. This would save a few units which could then trigger an internal fleet shuffle and ultimately deal with the current level of overcrowding on the FGW network. The Brighton services are not necessarry if most customers are changing at Fareham from Southern services onto Pompey-Cardiffs and travelling to South Wales, when the current trains from Brighton go up to the Malverns!

What is the general response to this proposal? Feel free to respond!

Thanks,

Ryan

 

[thefab444]

Given that there is only one Great Malvern - Brighton service (1051 GMV - BTN, returns on 1700 BTN - WOS), you'd only save two units; the morning service (0900 BTN - GMV) is formed from a working from Portsmouth (0701 PMH - BTN). Both the morning run into Brighton and the evening run out of Brighton are quite important commuter services I believe.

Question is, would it be worth it for the gain of two extra 2 158 units, especially as Southern would presumably have to provide some kind of replacement service.

 

[Big Chris]

Considering the limited number of services provided by FGW it is unlikely to have a major impact on travellers from a station that is as well served as Brighton. However, with so few services how much of an impact can the extra stock make?

 

[devon_metro]

Better utilised between Southampton and Bristol than half empty between Weymouth and Bristol!

 

[GearJammer]

I could understand them pulling out of Brighton and only running as far as Portsmouth?

 

[TheWalrus]

Given that there is only one Great Malvern - Brighton service (1051 GMV - BTN, returns on 1700 BTN - WOS), you'd only save two units; the morning service (0900 BTN - GMV) is formed from a working from Portsmouth (0701 PMH - BTN). Both the morning run into Brighton and the evening run out of Brighton are quite important commuter services I believe.

Question is, would it be worth it for the gain of two extra 2 158 units, especially as Southern would presumably have to provide some kind of replacement service.

1051 is a 3-car I believe?

They could run a replacement service, however is there sufficient capacity provided by current services?

How did you work out it was only 2 units?

Many thanks,

Ryan

 

[Ivo]

Question is, would it be worth it for the gain of two extra 2 158 units, especially as Southern would presumably have to provide some kind of replacement service.

Let me think about that one

So first SWT pull out, and now FGW? Isn't that a bit much? I think that, if anything, there should be a greater priority on the route than there is at present. A fast service from Cardiff - say, city stops only, plus Westbury, to Southampton (CDF - NWP - BRI - BTH - WSB - SAL - SOU), then fast stations to Brighton (the provision of "city" is just convenient; those are the main stations after all), as a summer service once every couple of hours?

 

[TheWalrus]

Considering the limited number of services provided by FGW it is unlikely to have a major impact on travellers from a station that is as well served as Brighton. However, with so few services how much of an impact can the extra stock make?

True, but a 3-car 158 is a lot of extra capacity, so if you pulled the 1051 south of Westbury, you could reshuffle the fleet. E.g. 2-car 150/158 could form the 1051 (unless it is busy on it's way up) then the 3-car 158 could go to a Cardiff-Taunton (as there's 2 LHSs on this route); or it could stay, or go to another route, releasing a 150 for Exeter locals. The list of possibilities goes on, you just need to find the best one I'll have to figure this one out in more depth and get back to the forum.
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Better utilised between Southampton and Bristol than half empty between Weymouth and Bristol!

Are you basing this on an additional Weymouth service being a 158 3-car?Well don't worry it wouldn't be! I would put the 158 on a slightly busier route, releasing a 150, 2car 158 or maybe even a 153 for the Weymouth leg.

 

[mrcheek]

The FGW Brighton run is completely pointless. There are plenty of Southern services out of Brighton along the south coast. There are plenty of places on the FGW network where the units could be better utilised.

 

[TheWalrus]

A fast service from Cardiff - say, city stops only, plus Westbury, to Southampton (CDF - NWP - BRI - BTH - WSB - SAL - SOU), then fast stations to Brighton (the provision of "city" is just convenient; those are the main stations after all), as a summer service once every couple of hours?

It's an idea, and no idea is a bad idea But maybe as a summer saturday only thing, I believe that would make sense!
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The FGW Brighton run is completely pointless. There are plenty of Southern services out of Brighton along the south coast. There are plenty of places on the FGW network where the units could be better utilised.

This is exactly my point. Thank you for your back up on this one (Y)

 

[Ivo]

Is this actually a genuine proposal, or just an idea?

 

[TheWalrus]

Is this actually a genuine proposal, or just an idea?

Just an idea I've thought of and briefly looked at. I like to post my ideas on here before I take them any further, to see what the general view is. If it's bad then I will quietly shelve the idea

 

[Ivo]

Is this actually a genuine proposal, or just an idea?

Just an idea I've thought of and briefly looked at. I like to post my ideas on here before I take them any further, to see what the general view is. If it's bad then I will quietly shelve the idea

Ha ha. If I did that every time I had an idea I would be on about 1,500 posts by now! And that's as though nearly 1,000 in just over five months isn't enough anyway

I would be quite disappointed if only Southern ran along the South Coast. You'd think that the area is busy enough for at least some kind of alternative service down there. Or, failing that, there could be a "Seaside Express" service, calling only at notable resorts (and their "gateways") and truly major alternative locations (i.e. Southampton), from Bournemouth/Poole or even Weymouth. Something like this: POO - BMH - BCU - SOU - FRM - HAV - CCH - BAA - WRH - SSE - HOV - BTN (with a possible extension at either end to/from Weymouth (Dorchester South & Wareham) or Eastbourne (Lewes)).

Yep, I'm at it again. Sorry for ruining the thread Walrus.

I agree that the service is somewhat pointless; it should be either more frequent or not run at all. In fact, I only discovered the Portsmouth to Brighton FGW service standing on Trowbridge Platform 1 a few hours ago!

 

[TheExmoorBeast]

There's more than enough services across that line and you only need to see the utter chaos that ensues when a 377 conks out over there, if you look there's no space for a proper fast service, it just gets tangled up in the endless SN service.

 

[Ivo]

How many passing places are there? I know that Fareham and Hove have the facilities to permit passing slower trains, but how many other areas are there? I assume that West Worthing, Ford and Barnham have at least something? (But that still leaves Hove to West Worthing, which is quite far...)

 

[Drsatan]

How many passing places are there? I know that Fareham and Hove have the facilities to permit passing slower trains, but how many other areas are there? I assume that West Worthing, Ford and Barnham have at least something? (But that still leaves Hove to West Worthing, which is quite far...)

To the best of my knowledge trains cannot overtake at Fareham - until platform 2 is turned into a through platform to allow Pompey-bound trains to overtake.

 

[lm321412]

On another note, would anybody actually want to travel all the way from Great Malvern to Brighton on it!?

 

[Greenback]

I didn't know FGW still ran trains to Brighton. They should pull out as soon as possible, they only run there because of an historical anachronism!

Bristol - Southampton has been desperately overcrowded every time I've been on the line, that would be a good place to strengthen services!

 

[Ivo]

Then why not push for an extra hourly service on the line, using 180s (check the "180s up for grabs" thread), alternating between Bournemouth and Brighton? This way, Bristol-Southampton becomes half-hourly, and the options for travelling around are easier.

Yes, I'm biased because it's convenient. No-one mention that

(What anachronism anyway?)

 

[Greenback]

That would be too logical and sensible for our railway system Ivo!

IIRC, the Portsmouth serivice was run by the Western and Southern Regions originally. Itw as the Southern that wanted to run trains through to Brighton. The anachronism was that undersectorisation, Regional Railways assumed responsibility for these trains, although Portsmouth - Brighton was well inside NSE land. Hence, on privatisation, it was transferred to Wessex and then to FGW.

 

[Ivo]

Would you complain if I attempted to become an MP, and push to become the Transport Minister as early as possible?

As for the question of travelling from Great Malvern to Brighton, um, no-one. It just happens to run to Great Malvern. Most of the traffic is from Bristol/Bath and Southampton onwards. Although, on that basis, wouldn't it make sense for SWT to run it?

 

[swt_passenger]

The only weekday FGW through train TO Brighton, the 1435 ex Southampton, runs in the path normally used by the xx35 hourly SN service. So in that hour the SN is diverted via Eastleigh 10 mins early at 1425 to get it out the way, the SN unit then picks up the normal route at Fareham and follows 5 mins behind the FGW all the way to Brighton. So in that direction anyway the FGW can be considered to get in the way of the normal service. Frequencies on the west coastway don't allow for an additional train every hour IIRC, the suggestion to run Brighton to Bournemouth should be done by extending the existing SN Brighton service beyond Southampton.

The morning train runs from Portsmouth to Brighton pretty early and doesn't even appear in FGW's timetable IIRC...

Now that SWT run an hourly Southampton to Salisbury stopper all day on the opposite half hour to FGW's Portsmouth service, I'd go further and bin those FGW services south of Salisbury that only go to Southampton as well as the Brightons, in fact I proposed this when the GW RUS was at the consultation stage. The units displaced would be much better employed in the Bristol area, or strengthening Portsmouth - Cardiff to four cars where possible, and Salisbury is a perfectly adequate station to change trains at...

On a related point, I wouldn't worry about SWT no longer running to Brighton, the replacement SN service is IMHO much more heavily used, and is more of an all day service than SWT's Basingstoke/Reading - Brighton service ever was, especially as these trains were diverted elsewhere, ie to/from Portsmouth Harbour, in the peaks.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Havant is now a passing point as both lines are bi-directional.

A few years ago Wales & West ran an extra train from Bristol to Brighton and back during the summer months which would arrive in Brighton around lunchtime, it was notable in that it ran fast between Bristol and Southampton in both directions.

 

[thelem]

I travel Brighton - Salisbury or Bristol about once a month, and try to get this trains if at all convenient, as they save a reasonable amount of time compared to changing between Southampton & Portsmouth or in London (which involved a tube connection), although I appreciate they can't run them just for me!

What I'd really like is a faster service Brighton - Cosham/Fareham, but as mentioned there aren't many passing opportunities. Hove is only really useful for London trains, as it's within walking distance of Brighton. Havant has plenty of space between the platforms for another line or two, so could be used for passing with a little investment, although that's quite close to Portsmouth. There is also Littlehampton.

 

[bluenoxid]

One option is to curtail at Southampton and run a fast service using 3rd rail electrics to Brighton with a same platform connection.

 

[thelem]

The morning train runs from Portsmouth to Brighton pretty early and doesn't even appear in FGW's timetable IIRC...

It leaves Portsmouth 7:05 arriving Brighton 8:20, pretty good for a commuter service. There are a couple of Southern services arriving 8:38, but that might be too late for someone who starts work at 9am.

 

[Ivo]

The morning train runs from Portsmouth to Brighton pretty early and doesn't even appear in FGW's timetable IIRC...

It's in Timetable 25 (Cardiff Central* and Bristol to Southampton and Portsmouth), as follows:

GW [trolley] Code P
Portsmouth Harbour 0701
Portsmouth & Southsea 0705
Fratton 0710

Code P: Also calls at Havant 0719, Chichester 0731, Barnham 0739, Worthing 0756, Shoreham-by-Sea 0806, Hove 0814 and Brighton 0820

It isn't shown on the NSE map though; according to it, there are no FGW services eastbound from Portsmouth. Mind you, it does say "limited services are omitted".

(*Why Cardiff is shown as "Cardiff Central" when the other three are just the city names is beyond me )

 

[swt_passenger]

One option is to curtail at Southampton and run a fast service using 3rd rail electrics to Brighton with a same platform connection.

That's the point I forgot to make. Salisbury to Brighton already is a same platform connection off the SWT service to the SN Brighton, they sit in P2together. But a faster limited stop service along the coastway was discussed in the Sussex RUS and allegedly cannot be fitted in around the existing mix of services. Havant to Barnham already has a mix of fast, semifast and all stations for instance, then there are even more services join in between Barnham and Ford Junction...
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It leaves Portsmouth 7:05 arriving Brighton 8:20, pretty good for a commuter service. There are a couple of Southern services arriving 8:38, but that might be too late for someone who starts work at 9am.

But you'd have to assume if it did't run SN would cover it with a 3 or 4 car EMU.

 

[Ivo]

Havant is now a passing point as both lines are bi-directional.

A few years ago Wales & West ran an extra train from Bristol to Brighton and back during the summer months which would arrive in Brighton around lunchtime, it was notable in that it ran fast between Bristol and Southampton in both directions.

?! As in, non-stop? Thereby skipping, among others, here () and Salisbury?

(Doesn't beat the summer Paddington - Newquay service I saw on Saturday at Reading though; after Reading, it ran fast to Lostwithiel, skipping even Exeter St David's and Plymouth, before calling at Par and finally Newquay! And how many HSTs serve Lostwithiel anyway? )

 

[swt_passenger]

It's in Timetable 25 (Cardiff Central* and Bristol to Southampton and Portsmouth), as follows:

GW [trolley] Code P
Portsmouth Harbour 0701
Portsmouth & Southsea 0705
Fratton 0710

Code P: Also calls at Havant 0719, Chichester 0731, Barnham 0739, Worthing 0756, Shoreham-by-Sea 0806, Hove 0814 and Brighton 0820

That's new then, but it is in fact basically in the wrong direction of the timetable isn't it?