FGW to convert First Class carriages

[Peter Mugridge]

Most of the prototypes are still in traffic, but spread across several operators.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Interesting, 42years old and still going strong in front line service,yet some on here claim the production versions are past their sell by date! Thanks for that chaps.

 

[fgwrich]

Having spent some time at Reading awaiting my delayed XC home last night I noticed a few of the refurbished vehicles intermingled within the current rather in mixed up formations, a few reversed sets and a set complete with 2 First Class Coaches (1 old, 1 new) and the Buffet reversed around - what happens in that scenario where the buffet coach is pointing the wrong way around? Does it still remain as a FC Vehicle or become declass? It almost gave the impression of a TRSB!

Another noticeable way to spot a refurb TF from the outside is the lighting - the lighting in the previous FC refurbishment produces a sort of yellow-ish glow, the new ones a more muted white. Inside of the doors have been repainted from 'Rubine Red / Pink' to a sort of Dark Grey & Blue combination, something looking a little akin to an EC Mk3 than FGW.

 

[CC 72100]

Having spent some time at Reading awaiting my delayed XC home last night I noticed a few of the refurbished vehicles intermingled within the current rather in mixed up formations, a few reversed sets and a set complete with 2 First Class Coaches (1 old, 1 new) and the Buffet reversed around - what happens in that scenario where the buffet coach is pointing the wrong way around? Does it still remain as a FC Vehicle or become declass? It almost gave the impression of a TRSB!

Just saw a set like that go past - as it was one of the sets which was otherwise in the old formation, having 2 TFs, I would imagine that declassification wouldn't make too much of a difference to first class capacity overall and surely must be the most sensible option.

The other set which amuses me is the one with two disabled toilets (two coach 'C's) - there are sets running around with none, so no disabled facilities in standard, yet this one has two!

Noticing a lot of refurbished vehicles now - maybe even as great as 1/4 to a 1/3 of TFs.

(Alright, that's still way less than half, but considering we hadn't seen a single one a few months back, it shows they're not hanging around with the conversions)

 

[Starmill]

Noticing a lot of refurbished vehicles now - maybe even as great as 1/4 to a 1/3 of TFs.

(Alright, that's still way less than half, but considering we hadn't seen a single one a few months back, it shows they're not hanging around with the conversions)

Sounds good. I'm still finding something of a dearth of photos of them online 'in the wild' as opposed to how they look in FGW's promo. No YouTube vids of the interior or anything, clearly I am more excited about this than the masses are. It does look fantastic, I really want to sit in it!

 

[Ash Bridge]

Sounds good. I'm still finding something of a dearth of photos of them online 'in the wild' as opposed to how they look in FGW's promo. No YouTube vids of the interior or anything, clearly I am more excited about this than the masses are. It does look fantastic, I really want to sit in it!

No you're not alone on this, if they are as good in the flesh as they look on the promo, then they look head and shoulders above the 1st class interiors on the new E* 374s or IEP mock ups, (personally speaking ofcourse)

 

[Goldfish62]

No you're not alone on this, if they are as good in the flesh as they look on the promo, then they look head and shoulders above the 1st class interiors on the new E* 374s or IEP mock ups, (personally speaking ofcourse)

Hmm, IEP maybe, but I can't see any way the comfort of the FGW 1st Class can be anywhere close to the comfort of that in a 374, which is a Velaro, ie an evolved ICE. Even 2nd Class seats in ICEs are larger and more comfortable than most 1st Class seats in the UK, and they even recline. The 1st Class seats in refurbished ICE1 and 2s are simply superb.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Hmm, IEP maybe, but I can't see any way the comfort of the FGW 1st Class can be anywhere close to the comfort of that in a 374, which is a Velaro, ie an evolved ICE. Even 2nd Class seats in ICEs are larger and more comfortable than most 1st Class seats in the UK, and they even recline. The 1st Class seats in refurbished ICE1 and 2s are simply superb.

Yes quite possibly, but I was meaning more in a visual way, those images of the 1st class interiors on the 374s just do not ( to me) look as stylish, even a bit voyager-ish with all that plastic panelling.Out of interest just how much wider is 374 over a 373 or a Standard TGV-A for that matter, the Atlantique sets do not feel any wider at all in the passenger saloons than a 373.

 

[jon0844]

I didn't think first class on the ICE3 felt that 'homely' but it's definitely more modern.

Ultimately, it's just a different way of doing things though.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Hmm, IEP maybe, but I can't see any way the comfort of the FGW 1st Class can be anywhere close to the comfort of that in a 374, which is a Velaro, ie an evolved ICE. Even 2nd Class seats in ICEs are larger and more comfortable than most 1st Class seats in the UK, and they even recline. The 1st Class seats in refurbished ICE1 and 2s are simply superb.

Yes, I agree, the German ICEs 1, 2, or 3 versions are indeed excellent in first & second class, both classes seem to much more room and comfort. I prefer ICEs to TGVs / Thalys which although fast always seem rather cramped.

 

[CC 72100]

Some more interesting formations being observed this weekend - a few 2+7 rakes as previously described, a set with a new FC coach slap bang in the middle of standard on Friday, and a few rakes which are have only 1 first class coach and then a microbuffet standard coach, making it 7 standard/1 first.

"Old formation" sets getting rarer and rarer - only seen one with 2 FC coaches and a TRFB go past this weekend.
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Just seen a set go down with a refurbished buffet on it, as well as a refurbished TF. Easy to tell by the lighting. I wonder if any other work has been done to the buffet vehicle aside from the first class refurbishment.

 

[Sleepy]

I am wondering how peak trains from Pad are coping with 1.5 first class formations, certainly some other intercity TOC struggle with 2 coaches so interested to hear what you may have observed recently.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No you're not alone on this, if they are as good in the flesh as they look on the promo, then they look head and shoulders above the 1st class interiors on the new E* 374s or IEP mock ups, (personally speaking ofcourse)

They do look very nice indeed, but they've *really* skimped on the lighting, sadly (this seems to be something fGW just can't get right) - they've just replaced the striplights with dull LEDs, still in the horrible daylight colour though at least not as bright.

Neil

 

[Starmill]

They do look very nice indeed, but they've *really* skimped on the lighting, sadly (this seems to be something fGW just can't get right) - they've just replaced the striplights with dull LEDs, still in the horrible daylight colour though at least not as bright.

Neil

I'd love to see the comparison with my own eyes. You can't get this from a picture.

 

[Ash Bridge]

They do look very nice indeed, but they've *really* skimped on the lighting, sadly (this seems to be something fGW just can't get right) - they've just replaced the striplights with dull LEDs, still in the horrible daylight colour though at least not as bright.

Neil

Unable to give a personal opinion, but if this is the case you wouldn't think today with the lighting technology that's available, that it would be too difficult to get the perfect balance of colour temperature/illumination. Then again I would suppose everyone has their own opinion of what is right and what isn't.

 

[LexyBoy]

Seen a few trains with only one FC coach looking fairly cosy, but in general it looks like it's working out so far. The extra capacity in standard is certainly very noticable, I regularly see trains leaving Reading with empty seats which was unheard of before the conversions.

Unable to give a personal opinion, but if this is the case you wouldn't think today with the lighting technology that's available, that it would be too difficult to get the perfect balance of colour temperature/illumination. Then again I would suppose everyone has their own opinion of what is right and what isn't.

I think part of the problem is that the cheap LEDs have a horrible light quality - poor quality phosphors give a very blue light which manages to be harsh and dim at the same time. Also since the watt-cost of lighting is so low, there seems to be a temptation to make everything as bright as possible.

The "old" first class had reasonably warm lighting though, not the abomination that's in standard (and I note to my displeasure that some of the converted 1st has had its lighting replaced to match).

 

[CC 72100]

The "old" first class had reasonably warm lighting though, not the abomination that's in standard (and I note to my displeasure that some of the converted 1st has had its lighting replaced to match).

Ah really? All of the former first vehicles that I've seen have retainer the former first class lighting, I can easily see that when they pass in the dark, they stick out like a sore thumb

(I actually quite like the lighting in standard, but I better keep that one quiet... )

 

[Ash Bridge]

(I actually quite like the lighting in standard, but I better keep that one quiet... )

That was my point, One mans meat etc...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah really? All of the former first vehicles that I've seen have retainer the former first class lighting, I can easily see that when they pass in the dark, they stick out like a sore thumb

(I actually quite like the lighting in standard, but I better keep that one quiet... )

Crikey, somebody does. You can have all of it, then! Ugh.

Neil

 

[jon0844]

I assume FGW specified a certain colour temperature for the lighting?

Wagn refreshed the 317s in the mid 2000s with cool white fluorescent lighting and it made the interior look a lot brighter, but it also looked horrible and over time they were changed back as tubes blew.

FGW also seemed to favour this on the HSTs, while some others go for a warmer white (which I'd imagine is preferable).

I wonder who made that decision, and did the research to determine the best lighting to use? Cool white is probably not the best choice, although I think I've seen bulbs now that can be switched from cold to warm white. Not sure how that works, but it sounds like a good way of giving options even after fitting.

 

[455driver]

Ah really? All of the former first vehicles that I've seen have retainer the former first class lighting, I can easily see that when they pass in the dark, they stick out like a sore thumb

(I actually quite like the lighting in standard, but I better keep that one quiet... )

I have noticed a few that have had the 'standard' lights fitted although most do still retain the 1st class style lights.

 

[Parallel]

I think part of the problem is that the cheap LEDs have a horrible light quality - poor quality phosphors give a very blue light which manages to be harsh and dim at the same time. Also since the watt-cost of lighting is so low, there seems to be a temptation to make everything as bright as possible.

I'm not a fan of the LED tubes FGW use in their 150/1s. FGW seem to use two different types of LED tubes on these trains, sometimes mixed in the same carriage. I find one type reasonable but the other with the smaller LEDs in a narrower line very unpleasant, glare-y, and like you say, bright and dim at the same time. Also not unusual to see a few tubes not working either.

In terms of the HSTs, I do find the standard lighting a little harsh. But we should be thankful they only usually have half of them on! Has anyone ever been on a FGW HST where they've had all their lighting in the carriages on? hock:

 

[jon0844]

In terms of the HSTs, I do find the standard lighting a little harsh. But we should be thankful they only usually have half of them on! Has anyone ever been on a FGW HST where they've had all their lighting in the carriages on? hock:

Yes, and here's a photo of someone boarding a FGW HST with all the lights on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wonder who made that decision, and did the research to determine the best lighting to use? Cool white is probably not the best choice, although I think I've seen bulbs now that can be switched from cold to warm white. Not sure how that works, but it sounds like a good way of giving options even after fitting.

Cool white is what the newer LM Desiros have, that's fine, though I prefer warm white. It's daylight white, which is far more blue than actual daylight, that fGW use and is horrible.

Jon Porter used to post on uk.railway that it had to do with power consumption through old wiring, but now we have LEDs that need no longer be the case, and it is also not a good reason for fitting the horrid things to the 180s.

Notably TfL installed them on the A-stock and C-stock, but they have gone for warm white on the S-stock (fortunately).

Neil
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Yes, and here's a photo of someone boarding a FGW HST with all the lights on.

When first done they were all on, though Jon Porter (referenced elsewhere) used to claim they weren't designed for that. Though if that was true, I don't know why they didn't just fit fewer fittings, e.g. only one line of them rather than two.

They are all on at all times on the 180s, and it is truly awful.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I wonder who made that decision, and did the research to determine the best lighting to use? Cool white is probably not the best choice, although I think I've seen bulbs now that can be switched from cold to warm white. Not sure how that works, but it sounds like a good way of giving options even after fitting.

With a red, green and blue LED you can get any colour you like. That's what airlines are increasingly using to give false dawns and the likes. I wonder will the railway consider that? Particularly the new seated sleeper coaches for Serco Caledonian Sleeper?

Neil

 

[jon0844]

With a red, green and blue LED you can get any colour you like.

Yeah, that's possible but I think it's still quite hard to get a good white from the multicoloured lights.

Aren't warm white bulbs actually blue LEDs with a amber coating?

I therefore think the switchable ones actually have two LEDs - one for cool white and one for warm, which is switchable. Therefore they aren't true multi-colour lights (which of course you can now buy quite cheaply and easily, often with a remote control to change the brightness and colour).

I'll have to look into it a bit further, but it seems many TOCs have been convinced that cooler lighting is better for making interiors look brighter and more spacious. They might have a point, but it doesn't make for a very comfortable environment.

That's what airlines are increasingly using to give false dawns and the likes. I wonder will the railway consider that? Particularly the new seated sleeper coaches for Serco Caledonian Sleeper?

Certainly makes sense for ambient lighting. Heathrow Express doesn't have changeable lighting but has used purple to very good effect, and I liked how Virgin had used different colours on some of its planes. Even just having the lighting fading at different times of the journey is a nice feature of the newer planes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Aren't warm white bulbs actually blue LEDs with a amber coating?

All white LEDs are UV LEDs with various colours of phosphor, I believe. Though my spotlight ones do seem to look a bit yellow when turned off.

I'll have to look into it a bit further, but it seems many TOCs have been convinced that cooler lighting is better for making interiors look brighter and more spacious. They might have a point, but it doesn't make for a very comfortable environment.

You can make a pleasant environment using that sort of colour if it's used only for low level background lighting - the Irish Rail DMUs use it. It's just horrible when it's excessively bright.

Neil

 

[fgwrich]

Standing at Reading Station last weekend waiting for my connections revealed something else with the FGW HST rakes. There seem to be a few HST sets around with 2 Ex FC coaches in them, one of which last Sunday the Vestibules painted up the same as the new gWr FC Mk3s - are FGW Changing it or is this an odd one out with the ex FC lighting?

 

[455driver]

I saw my first Buffet with the new interior today it is currently on the 1837 Paddington to Bridgend (1B79), the rake also had 3 ex 1sts in it 42563, 42580 and 42581.

 

[CC 72100]

Experienced the new first class in the flesh last night on 2E57 20:46 Paignton - Exeter SD - often has standard locked out with all of the around 7 passengers using first only.

Very impressed - the seats are very comfortable and the charging sockets are much better placed than on previous refurbs (both classes). Not quite sure what the little blue lights on the table are for, but they're a nice touch. The table seems absolutely massive (or maybe I'm too used to peasant class ), although I'd advise not staring at the pattern for too long.

The vestibules being re-done was a bit of a surprise, and the doors having a '1' on it felt to me like a bit of a throughback to Intercity days, although of course the '1' was on the outside, not on the inside.

Both the FO and the buffet were refurbished - must be up to 50/50 in old v new numbers now.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Experienced the new first class in the flesh last night on 2E57 20:46 Paignton - Exeter SD - often has standard locked out with all of the around 7 passengers using first only.

Very impressed - the seats are very comfortable and the charging sockets are much better placed than on previous refurbs (both classes). Not quite sure what the little blue lights on the table are for, but they're a nice touch. The table seems absolutely massive (or maybe I'm too used to peasant class ), although I'd advise not staring at the pattern for too long.

The vestibules being re-done was a bit of a surprise, and the doors having a '1' on it felt to me like a bit of a throughback to Intercity days, although of course the '1' was on the outside, not on the inside.

Both the FO and the buffet were refurbished - must be up to 50/50 in old v new numbers now.

Is that quilted material real leather as on the previous seats?