FGW HSTs: worst refurbishment ever?

[Woody]

Barry Doe writing in the latest rail magazine says the following and I have to say that I agree with him totally on this one,

"Now that I have used them a number of times. I think First Great Western’s HST’s have received the worst refurbishment ever to have been undertaken on any train.
Standard class being virtually all airline-style travel must now be a turn-off for families and even when there are tables some have very restricted views owing to window pillars. Some airline seats have no view at all for the same reason.
This is a train configured to maximise seat numbers for commuter journeys like London-Reading with no regard for the fact people also have to endure them from London to Penzance.
In first class the leather seats are slippery and will no doubt get extremely hot if the sun shines on them in summer.
It is also the only first class without reading lights, occasioned by the fact that the strip lights in the ceiling are so vivid you supposedly don’t need them.
In fact, the lighting even spoils views out of the window on sunny days. It cries out for softer lighting and individual reading lights, as other trains offer.
I recently switched from one at Westbury on to one of the South West Trains’ superb two-car Class 158s, normally used on the new ‘figure of six’ Salisbury-Romsey-Southampton-Eastleigh-Romsey service. Surely the most luxurious suburban train in the country, it really showed the HST and I’d far sooner do London-Penzance in the Class 158.

 

[will1337]

I agree that the refurbs are terrible and have no idea how it was possible to fit that many seats into a carriage or why there'd be so little personal space on trains that you can spend over 5 hours on. The lighting is too white and intense and with the high backed uncomfortable seats right agains your it's quite claustrophobic and compared to before the refurb, the atmosphere has been completely killed. The seats are too low as well, probably for accesibility but this adds to the claustrophobic feeling.

I could understand why they'd be refurbed like this if they were just doing London - Bristol/Cardiff as that's a lot shorter and there are commuters but it makes no sense going down to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[Mintona]

I think they're rather plush myself. I have legroom - something I don't have on anything else other than 180s.

 

[P156KWJ]

whatever happened to the nice big sofa style seats on HSTs? those seats on refurbs should have been used on something like pacers or 150s and yes, I think it's very silly having only 2 or 3 tables in a whole mk3.

 

[Jordy]

Yeh it is a shame to see the old seats being phased out, they are in my opinion one of the most comfortable on the network!

 

[P156KWJ]

Yeh it is a shame to see the old seats being phased out, they are in my opinion one of the most comfortable on the network!

I think EMT's HST seats are the most comfortable, they support your back well and are not too hard/soft.

 

[Guinness]

I think EMT's HST seats are the most comfortable, they support your back well and are not too hard/soft.

Half of them are broke though.

I prefer a Mk1 Compartment seat anyday!

 

[P156KWJ]

Half of them are broke though.

I prefer a Mk1 Compartment seat anyday!

at least they have decent sized trays that will actually support a laptop and a coffee

 

[delt1c]

Havent used the FGW refurbs yet, but I travel from London to birmingham on business and now use the Chiltern service rather than endure a cramped and claustraphobic pendo from Euston. The 168's have far more leg room and the seating means you have a view from a window.

 

[P156KWJ]

yes, the size of windows on pendos is awaful

 

[support-uk-rail]

The seats on the refurbed 43's have really high backs, it's just generally annoying...

 

[P156KWJ]

The seats on the refurbed 43's have really high backs, it's just generally annoying...

I much prefer high backed seats to low backs. The comfiest coaches in service for long journeys has to be refurbed NXEC mk4s. Just went one stop from Grantham to Newark and didn't want to get up because they were so comfy!

 

[me123]

I like the new Mallard upgrades to the HST fleet with NXEC. They carriages are really bright and pleasent and I quite like the seats.

I prefer the seating on the unrefurbished sets, but the actually carriage interior is very dull and the toilets are, quite frankly, horrible. If they kept the original seating (perhaps re-upholstering it) during the refurb there, they'd have potentially created the perfect train.

 

[mrcheek]

the point everyone is ignoring is why the trains were changed.
the line from Reading to London has no capacity for extra trains. and there are no extra carriages available to fit the existing HSTs. so FGW did what they had to do to try and increase passenger capacity on the line.
Most people using the service are single business travellers. They just want some legroom. Which they now have more of, as there is far less wasted space. They dont care for a table.
Frankly, FGW has done a good job.

 

[me123]

The thing is that the SW coast is a big tourist location, as a result inducing lots of families. I think they should have a fleet of "commuter" trains for Bristol runs and the like, and another fleet with more tables designed for running to Plymouth and Penzance, thus catering for both commuters and leisure travellers as necessary on each route.

 

[P156KWJ]

I like the new Mallard upgrades to the HST fleet with NXEC. They carriages are really bright and pleasent and I quite like the seats.

I prefer the seating on the unrefurbished sets, but the actually carriage interior is very dull and the toilets are, quite frankly, horrible. If they kept the original seating (perhaps re-upholstering it) during the refurb there, they'd have potentially created the perfect train.

went on one of the unrefurb mk3s this morning, the seats are very very slightly to low-backed for me, and the upholstery has seen better days, and I think that light brown and more brown are a bit 1970s and the lights have about 6000 dead mosquitos in them! Although their PA system is decent (I know it's a bit sad but I really like the 'ding dong' when PA announcements are made on unrefurb NXEC mk3s!)

 

[delt1c]

the point everyone is ignoring is why the trains were changed.
the line from Reading to London has no capacity for extra trains. and there are no extra carriages available to fit the existing HSTs. so FGW did what they had to do to try and increase passenger capacity on the line.
Most people using the service are single business travellers. They just want some legroom. Which they now have more of, as there is far less wasted space. They dont care for a table.
Frankly, FGW has done a good job.

Interesting. why then was the origonal intentention to reduce train lengths and remove the Buffet car? Other operators are converting loco hauled MkIII coaches why couldnt FGW do the same. As I understand it the catering cars are to be removed from selected sets later this year, surely they could have had the 1st class seating replaced by standard and retail the Buffet facility.
At the end of the day this increases revenue whilst reducing overheads, overall winner is the ballance sheet.

 

[me123]

Although their PA system is decent (I know it's a bit sad but I really like the 'ding dong' when PA announcements are made on unrefurb NXEC mk3s!)

Thing I like about the PA on the HSTs is the clarity. So many trains have PA systems that are absolutely useless (anything older than a 158 on FSR comes to mind): you can't make out a word they're saying. I know they use PAs more on NXEC than on FSR, but the 156's PA system is IMO useless when you compare it to that on the older Intercity 125s.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Most people using the service are single business travellers. They just want some legroom. Which they now have more of, as there is far less wasted space. They dont care for a table.
Frankly, FGW has done a good job.

I agree! What I think they've done very well is create a really significant difference between First & Standard. There's more capacity in Standard, (which is desperaely needed), and plenty legroom, comfort and table space in First. Who said "You pays yer money and takes yer choice"? The passenger really can have whichever they wish.

And the PA does seem to be clearer than on any other HST - (hard to be objectively accurate about that, tho!).

 

[Max]

went on one of the unrefurb mk3s this morning, the seats are very very slightly to low-backed for me, and the upholstery has seen better days, and I think that light brown and more brown are a bit 1970s and the lights have about 6000 dead mosquitos in them! Although their PA system is decent (I know it's a bit sad but I really like the 'ding dong' when PA announcements are made on unrefurb NXEC mk3s!)

The old Virgin sets are the most depressing, with those hideous yellow vestibules! You'll be pleased to know that the old mk3 'bing-bong' on NXEC coaches has been retained in the refurbishment.

I agree! What I think they've done very well is create a really significant difference between First & Standard. There's more capacity in Standard, (which is desperaely needed), and plenty legroom, comfort and table space in First. Who said "You pays yer money and takes yer choice"? The passenger really can have whichever they wish.

I totally disagree. Why should standard class passengers travelling to Devon/Cornwall have to endure 4 hours on inferior, uncomfortable stock? The fact is that many families use the train to go on holiday here, yet FGW have ripped out all the tables, giving them some choices. Either endure the journey separated from each other in thin, high backed seats that give no view of the outside world, spend a significant amount of money on upgrading to first class or take the car. Your statement is fair enough - maybe there should be a wider gap between first and standard. However, downgrading standard class to achieve this is a completely unfair way of doing it. The fact that you should have to pay to go first class to get a table is ludicrous. I can do it on my local Northern train for the 5 minute journey into Hull, why shouldn't long distance passengers be able to do it? First Great Western have clearly demonstrated that the long distance market is of no interest to them, and that London-Reading is the only route they care about. Bring on the service cuts to the south west.

 

[devon_metro]

But what do you expect them to do?

Unless the government is commited to the railways and actually improve lines/buy new trains, its perfectly acceptable for FGW to put more seats in. Nobody wants to stand and on many services to Cornwall, they are full and standing so every extra seat helps!

 

[Woody]

the point everyone is ignoring is why the trains were changed.
the line from Reading to London has no capacity for extra trains. and there are no extra carriages available to fit the existing HSTs. so FGW did what they had to do to try and increase passenger capacity on the line.
Most people using the service are single business travellers. They just want some legroom. Which they now have more of, as there is far less wasted space. They dont care for a table.
Frankly, FGW has done a good job.

Most people who would use FGW HST from Devon and Cornwall bemoan the loss of once a great train for longer distances.Just watch an empty HST being boarded at Penzance or Plymouth,its always the very limited table seats that people rush for first.I recently saw a lighty loaded HST leaving Penzance with all the limited table seats occupied and most of the airline seats empty,say no more.
The busines model being forced on FGW by the Dft reflects the overwhelming domination of the commuter market on the franchise.Combine a train that is no longer suited to the longer haul to Devon/Cornwall with the slow rail route west of Exeter and its no wonder that people here are turning to improved road and air links for the longer haul in these parts when it should be the other way round.Thankfully the loss of longer distance passenger here is being made up by a boom in local travel within the two counties encouraged by very cheap local fares.For instance a Penzance to Paddington train will often see far more people leaving the train at Plymouth(day trippers) than Boarding it for onward destinations as I experienced today boarding the up "limited" at Plymouth this morning.

 

[vc-10]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but the great thing about FGW is that the upgrade to First Class really isn't too much. I travel a lot between Windsor and Westbury, and get First Class fares for only a couple of £s more. As I usually travel at weekends, the First Class coaches often have families in them (and Standard is overcrowded, as normal!). I do think that they should turn the buffet cars around though.
Re the refurbishment, I quite like the upgraded First Class cars. Having travelled on both old and new, I find the old seats a bit less comfortable. That being said, this was quite recently, and it could just be an old, collapsing seat, rather than anything else. I believe that the new seats are the same design as the SWT ones. I've not done a long journey in the SWT ones, just Salisbury to Tisbury, but they were definitely better than the FGW ones. If they are thinking about replacing the Buffet car with a standard coach, then why not just add in the standard coach aswell as the buffet car?

 

[devon_metro]

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but the great thing about FGW is that the upgrade to First Class really isn't too much. I travel a lot between Windsor and Westbury, and get First Class fares for only a couple of £s more. As I usually travel at weekends, the First Class coaches often have families in them (and Standard is overcrowded, as normal!). I do think that they should turn the buffet cars around though.
Re the refurbishment, I quite like the upgraded First Class cars. Having travelled on both old and new, I find the old seats a bit less comfortable. That being said, this was quite recently, and it could just be an old, collapsing seat, rather than anything else. I believe that the new seats are the same design as the SWT ones. I've not done a long journey in the SWT ones, just Salisbury to Tisbury, but they were definitely better than the FGW ones. If they are thinking about replacing the Buffet car with a standard coach, then why not just add in the standard coach aswell as the buffet car?

They were never planning to replace the buffet with standard - there are no Mk3 HST Trailers left, besides more stations would need SDO and it would mean slower acceleration. Current layout if fine and buffets are being kept (53 buffets for 53 sets atm)

 

[BJMorley]

Another strike to FGW's name. If they want more seating, bring back loco hauled services. Refurbishments to seating arrangements isn't going to solve anything, and people enjoy the view, not a pillar holding the roof.
Brandon

 

[devon_metro]

There were always seating with pillars before FGW came along........

 

[BJMorley]

I'm on about tables. Why was the HST advertised as the age of the train, with tables with little view, and seats which are so cramped into the space tall people, like me have to stand?
Brandon

 

[will1337]

Quite clearly far fewer tables now, quite clearly less comfort.

 

[adamp]

I’d far sooner do London-Penzance in the Class 158.

SAME!

 

[Snapper]

Another strike to FGW's name. If they want more seating, bring back loco hauled services. Refurbishments to seating arrangements isn't going to solve anything, and people enjoy the view, not a pillar holding the roof.
Brandon

Loco hauled is useless. There's no locos which can match the speed and acceleration of an HST - and even if there were - there wouldn't be the coaches to work with them.

FGW have done the best they can with what was on offer.

As for the comments about window pillars - the reality is that the general public just don't care. And more than a few people actually head for the pillar seats - especially if they're working or watching a film. Anyone who travels by train on a regular basis will notice that a large percentage of the travelling public don't care about the view - they've got their noses in books/magazines, games consoles and laptops. For them, a train is a means of getting from a-b.

For those who've never seen inside what we're talking about. Here's a few views:


http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p44658743.html

http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p44658746.html

http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p37084710.html

http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p37084706.html