FGW HST Lengthening

[Flamingo]

ending at Reading or not, we need to add capacity

Why???

 

[Captain Chaos]

I fail to see why we need to add capacity though for Paddington to Reading.

The thing that really needs to change is passenger mentality and not the number of carriages. I have frequently seen trains full and standing with passengers complaining about being full up when if you walk down a couple of carriages you'll find plenty of seats. There can only be two reasons for this I find:

1. Hoping to claim a free 1st Class Upgrade.
2. Being too lazy to walk down a couple of caoches to find said seats and instead choosing to stand in cramped conditions for the sheer hell of it because that's where the ticket barriers and exits are nearest (and complaining like hell to the TM about being 'forced' to stand like it.)

Don't get me wrong there are certainly a couple of services which are indeed quite bad. But lengthening all trains just for a couple of services is silly. Why should passengers travelling to Penzance suffer extended journey times because some bloke from Reading wants extra carriages put on the train when he's too lazy to find them anyway. You could put a thousand carriages on and give everyone their own personal carriage and you'll still get people cramming into Coach E.

This isn't exclusive to HST's out of Padd either. Padd to Reading/Oxford stoppers are just as bad. Pull into Ealing Broadway and everyone crowds round the bottom of the stairs and piles into the front coach going to Southall and Hayes despite their being 5 other carriages on the train. They will happily queue up for several minutes to board their special door and then complain about cattle-like conditions and moaning about how late the train is. What do they expect? If you all force yourselves into one carriage of course it's going to be rammed! (For the stairs you understand. Because walking an extra few metres is of course absurd!)

Guildford - North Camp can be like this too. As is Newbury - Reading (at all stops). And Wokingham - Reading. And Reading West/Mortimer/Bramley - Basingstoke. It happens everywhere. Passanger mentality needs to change first. Then maybe we can look at where capacity is needed the most. Because at the current rate all we need is a super long Coach E or front coach and one more carriage for anyone else.

Rant Over!

 

[Flamingo]

Because at the current rate all we need is a super long Coach E or front coach and one more carriage for anyone else.

Rant Over!

I did suggest that on a thread once!

 

[Captain Chaos]

I did suggest that on a thread once!

Indeed you did! I do remember it! I thought it worth saying again because it is rather true for Padd - Reading.

 

[Nym]

Well, it meerly indicates the calibre of the mental ability of those who commute from Berkshire doesn't it?

 

[F Great Eastern]

Surely at least a little way to help it, which I have seen here elsewhere, is if there is to be a seat reservation, make the system by default have a heavy bias towards picking seats in the coaches which are normally least full.

Of course this does not help with such things as season ticket holders but is a tiny bit of help.

 

[ainsworth74]

ending at Reading or not, we need to add capacity

We will be in the near future with the arrival of IEP and along Crossrail and the work being done at Reading.

When the IEP will come and will it be 12 car EMU is an important factor

There will be 10-car EMUs and 5-car Bi-Modes (doubled up at this point giving 10-car) which seeing as they're going to be 26m vehicles should give a big boost to capacity over the existing 2+7 and 2+8 HST formations.

 

[AndyLandy]

I fail to see why we need to add capacity though for Paddington to Reading.

The thing that really needs to change is passenger mentality and not the number of carriages. I have frequently seen trains full and standing with passengers complaining about being full up when if you walk down a couple of carriages you'll find plenty of seats. There can only be two reasons for this I find:

1. Hoping to claim a free 1st Class Upgrade.
2. Being too lazy to walk down a couple of caoches to find said seats and instead choosing to stand in cramped conditions for the sheer hell of it because that's where the ticket barriers and exits are nearest (and complaining like hell to the TM about being 'forced' to stand like it.)

OK, you make a very good point. I've only ever done Reading-Paddington once and that was because my usual Southampton-Waterloo service was cancelled as Basingstoke (fatality on the line). As such, we were all advised to detrain, get the next XC service to Reading then head into London from there. Everyone piled into the carriage at the bottom of the stairs. (In fairness, the train was due to leave soon, so we'd all made a dash to get to it) but people just hung around in that carriage, filling the aisle. The guard was ushering people down the train, but few people took heed. I barged my way towards the front of the train and found plenty of seating only two carriages down.

That said, who needs seating when you can lean out the window in the vestibule... Gotta make the most of that whilst I still can! Won't be able to do that for much longer.

 

[sprinterguy]

There will be 10-car EMUs and 5-car Bi-Modes (doubled up at this point giving 10-car) which seeing as they're going to be 26m vehicles should give a big boost to capacity over the existing 2+7 and 2+8 HST formations.

Unless the specification has changed, then the longer EMUs are going to be eight carriages long. Offering 106 first class seats and 422 standard class, as compared to 113 first class and 387 standard class in an FGW eight carriage HST (The low density ones, I think that is). And as an added bonus for Reading commuters, "Coach E" will be longer as IEP will, as you say, be using 26 metre vehicles!

Although it is very difficult to say just what form IEP is going to take, seeing as there doesn't seem to have been much publicly announced for quite some time.

 

[swt_passenger]

When the IEP will come and will it be 12 car EMU is an important factor

Reading up on the current official plans on NR's website before adding you own fantastic ideas and suggestions is an important factor too...

Saves a lot of wasted time...

 

[ainsworth74]

Unless the specification has changed, then the longer EMUs are going to be eight carriages long.

My apologies now that you've said I do remember that it is an 8-car EMU not 10-cars as I put. The damn specification has changed so much it can be quite hard to keep it all straight.

 

[Flamingo]

Surely at least a little way to help it, which I have seen here elsewhere, is if there is to be a seat reservation, make the system by default have a heavy bias towards picking seats in the coaches which are normally least full.

Of course this does not help with such things as season ticket holders but is a tiny bit of help.

Well, it was tried, and coach E was made non-res. It didn't make that much difference!

 

[Peter Sarf]

There will be 10-car EMUs and 5-car Bi-Modes (doubled up at this point giving 10-car) which seeing as they're going to be 26m vehicles should give a big boost to capacity over the existing 2+7 and 2+8 HST formations.

Oh dear does that mean there will be no way of walking from the fifth coach to the sixth coach of an iep ?. I assume they will have thrusting sleek cab ends that dont cater for an inter-unit gangway connection. If so then the planners are human as well as the passengers .

 

[swt_passenger]

Oh dear does that mean there will be no way of walking from the fifth coach to the sixth coach of an iep ?. I assume they will have thrusting sleek cab ends that dont cater for an inter-unit gangway connection. If so then the planners are human as well as the passengers .

With 5+5, I've just thought of a way of getting Reading passengers to the front. Advertise at PAD that you won't open the back unit's doors...

 

[Peter Sarf]

Brilliant idea. Another justification for SDO then .

 

[TEW]

Not to sound like a broken record or anything, but the LHCS design I have previously discribed helps on pretty much all of these problems, as does kicking Heathrow Express off the GWML in it's current form, the fast lines should not have anything stopping on them before Reading, simple as!

But you need the Maidenhead and Twyford stops on the fast lines in the peak because there is no way you'd fit all the Maidenhead and Twyford passengers on the slow line services. I know the 1806 from London to Frome which calls at Twyford on the fast line carries nearly a full HST worth of passengers just getting off at Twyford. Part of the reason it dwells so long at Twyford is the time needed to get all the passengers off.

 

[Flamingo]

But you need the Maidenhead and Twyford stops on the fast lines in the peak because there is no way you'd fit all the Maidenhead and Twyford passengers on the slow line services. I know the 1806 from London to Frome which calls at Twyford on the fast line carries nearly a full HST worth of passengers just getting off at Twyford. Part of the reason it dwells so long at Twyford is the time needed to get all the passengers off.

It also has a lot to do with dispatching at Twyford as it is an SDO platform that is unmanned, so the guard has to unlock from the rear, walk forward checking doors, and then walk all the way back to the rear to dispatch. It all takes time, and involves the guard walking 300+ m.

 

[Nym]

But you need the Maidenhead and Twyford stops on the fast lines in the peak because there is no way you'd fit all the Maidenhead and Twyford passengers on the slow line services. I know the 1806 from London to Frome which calls at Twyford on the fast line carries nearly a full HST worth of passengers just getting off at Twyford. Part of the reason it dwells so long at Twyford is the time needed to get all the passengers off.

Please note I'd have four limited stop services per hour to Reading calling at Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, OOC, Paddington etc.

 

[Flamingo]

Please note I'd have four limited stop services per hour to Reading calling at Reading, Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, Hayes, OOC, Paddington etc.

Will they be that unreliable that they will have to make a scheduled stop at the servicing depot in every journey?

 

[AlanFry1]

I fail to see why we need to add capacity though for Paddington to Reading.

The thing that really needs to change is passenger mentality and not the number of carriages. I have frequently seen trains full and standing with passengers complaining about being full up when if you walk down a couple of carriages you'll find plenty of seats. There can only be two reasons for this I find:

1. Hoping to claim a free 1st Class Upgrade.
2. Being too lazy to walk down a couple of caoches to find said seats and instead choosing to stand in cramped conditions for the sheer hell of it because that's where the ticket barriers and exits are nearest (and complaining like hell to the TM about being 'forced' to stand like it.)

Don't get me wrong there are certainly a couple of services which are indeed quite bad. But lengthening all trains just for a couple of services is silly. Why should passengers travelling to Penzance suffer extended journey times because some bloke from Reading wants extra carriages put on the train when he's too lazy to find them anyway. You could put a thousand carriages on and give everyone their own personal carriage and you'll still get people cramming into Coach E.

This isn't exclusive to HST's out of Padd either. Padd to Reading/Oxford stoppers are just as bad. Pull into Ealing Broadway and everyone crowds round the bottom of the stairs and piles into the front coach going to Southall and Hayes despite their being 5 other carriages on the train. They will happily queue up for several minutes to board their special door and then complain about cattle-like conditions and moaning about how late the train is. What do they expect? If you all force yourselves into one carriage of course it's going to be rammed! (For the stairs you understand. Because walking an extra few metres is of course absurd!)

Guildford - North Camp can be like this too. As is Newbury - Reading (at all stops). And Wokingham - Reading. And Reading West/Mortimer/Bramley - Basingstoke. It happens everywhere. Passanger mentality needs to change first. Then maybe we can look at where capacity is needed the most. Because at the current rate all we need is a super long Coach E or front coach and one more carriage for anyone else.

Rant Over!

Like I have said, the Class 43s will be upgraded to cope with 10-car trains, so there will not be a rise in journey times for HST trains outside Reading. As more other FGW services, well then they will have to order more EMU/DMUs then. As for me, I like to look throughout the train to find seats

But FGW are amoung the most overcrowded on the rail network!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We will be in the near future with the arrival of IEP and along Crossrail and the work being done at Reading.



There will be 10-car EMUs and 5-car Bi-Modes (doubled up at this point giving 10-car) which seeing as they're going to be 26m vehicles should give a big boost to capacity over the existing 2+7 and 2+8 HST formations.

No dobut more capacity soon, but for now we should make the most of the current stock we have in the short term
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unless the specification has changed, then the longer EMUs are going to be eight carriages long. Offering 106 first class seats and 422 standard class, as compared to 113 first class and 387 standard class in an FGW eight carriage HST (The low density ones, I think that is). And as an added bonus for Reading commuters, "Coach E" will be longer as IEP will, as you say, be using 26 metre vehicles!

Although it is very difficult to say just what form IEP is going to take, seeing as there doesn't seem to have been much publicly announced for quite some time.

The maker of the IEP have said they can make any EMU/DMU between 5 to 12 cars

When it will arrive though is anohter matter...

 

[sprinterguy]

The maker of the IEP have said they can make any EMU/DMU between 5 to 12 cars

Yes, but the length of train specified for delivery is eight carriages, with an option for additional carriages to be added at a later date (And haven't we all heard that one before to no avail!).


Unless the specification changes again.


And (as you say) whenever an order is finally signed and trains start being delivered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No dobut more capacity soon, but for now we should make the most of the current stock we have in the short term

Which is exactly what FGW are doing by converting buffet cars to lengthen the 2+7 sets up to eight carriages, and through fitting a good deal more seats into the TSOs during the recent refurbishment. Uprating HST power cars to deal with longer formations as you seem to be suggesting is not a short term measure, but the trains will only have a short term of employment left with FGW.

 

[AlanFry1]

Yes, but the length of train specified for delivery is eight carriages, with an option for additional carriages to be added at a later date (And haven't we all heard that one before to no avail!).


Unless the specification changes again.


And (as you say) whenever an order is finally signed and trains start being delivered.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Which is exactly what FGW are doing by converting buffet cars to lengthen the 2+7 sets up to eight carriages, and through fitting a good deal more seats into the TSOs during the recent refurbishment. Uprating HST power cars to deal with longer formations as you seem to be suggesting is not a short term measure, but the trains will only have a short term of employment left with FGW.

Well if the IEP keeps getting delayed, the HST might still be in service, most likely on XC until 2020


I have heard that the new engines on the FGW HSTs are detuned

 

[ainsworth74]

No dobut more capacity soon, but for now we should make the most of the current stock we have in the short term

Yet none of your suggested schemes are all that short term (new fleet of trains for GEML isn't something that will be done in a few months) so by the time they are done the other plans for boosting capacity will basically be just about to deliver.

 

[AlanFry1]

Yet none of your suggested schemes are all that short term (new fleet of trains for GEML isn't something that will be done in a few months) so by the time they are done the other plans for boosting capacity will basically be just about to deliver.

It can be done by 2014, while the HST might still be need until 2020

 

[jopsuk]

Like I have said, the Class 43s will be upgraded to cope with 10-car trains, so there will not be a rise in journey times for HST trains outside Reading. ..

How? using fairy dust? How will you cope with the additional dwell time caused by SDO and more slam doors to be checked at minor stations? Pixies?

 

[AlanFry1]

How? using fairy dust? How will you cope with the additional dwell time caused by SDO and more slam doors to be checked at minor stations? Pixies?

Remind me what do you mean about SDO (sorry!)

The New Engines on the FGW Class 43 are detuned, also on EC their HST sets are 9 car

 

[AndyLandy]

Remind me what do you mean about SDO (sorry!)

The New Engines on the FGW Class 43 are detuned, also on EC their HST sets are 9 car

SDO = Selective Door Opening. If you make the trains longer than the platforms, you increase dwell times quite significantly.

 

[AlanFry1]

SDO = Selective Door Opening. If you make the trains longer than the platforms, you increase dwell times quite significantly.

Surly it does not matter if the the 2 Class 43s are not by the platform and the 10 Mark 3s are (rather than both 2 Class and 8 Mark 3 by the platform), then there is no need for SDO

 

[jopsuk]

you're making a big assumption that the power cars are alongside the platforms at all the relevant stations as it is, with the 2+7 sets (big hint: where SDO is used, this quite possibly not the case).

What evidence do you have that the MTUs are "detuned", and that "retuning" them wouldn't cause substantial maintainence issues? yes, the EC sets are longer, but then the EC services are timed to take the longer, heavier sets into account, and they runs long distances over flat land- whilst one a day does tackle the Highland Main Line, it's pretty damn slow up it, whereas FGW to the South West (I've not read all your drivvle in detail, but I assume you'd want all sets lengthened) beyond Exeter all ahve to tackle the steep slopes of Devon.

 

[AlanFry1]

you're making a big assumption that the power cars are alongside the platforms at all the relevant stations as it is, with the 2+7 sets (big hint: where SDO is used, this quite possibly not the case).

What evidence do you have that the MTUs are "detuned", and that "retuning" them wouldn't cause substantial maintainence issues? yes, the EC sets are longer, but then the EC services are timed to take the longer, heavier sets into account, and they runs long distances over flat land- whilst one a day does tackle the Highland Main Line, it's pretty damn slow up it, whereas FGW to the South West (I've not read all your drivvle in detail, but I assume you'd want all sets lengthened) beyond Exeter all ahve to tackle the steep slopes of Devon.

Hoew long are the platform on FGW HST routes, also sone did post about the new MTU engine on ths thread as detuned