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FGW HST hits tree

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Dennis

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Of course, the HST cab is made from GRP (glass reinforced polyester) - the same material as the bodywork of a Reliant Robin!

The glass fibres themselves are very strong and are what gives the material it's strength. Although the resin itself will readily fracture, to get the whole laminate to break requires immense tensile forces to break the glass. What tends to happen though is that the fibres 'pull out' of the resin matrix, a very efficient way of dissipating energy due to the bond strength between the fibres and resin. Fibre pull-out is clearly evident in the top right of Mr Curtis's image. I also see the use of foam in the composite structure of the cab wall - another useful energy absorber, assuming it is structural rather than just insulation.

The way the cab appears smashed is simply a manifestation of the energy absorbing characteristics of GRP, looking more dramatic than the more familiar bent metal.
 
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mallard

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Your exact point being ? :-?

I think he's getting at the fact that the squadron HST's didn't enter service until 1976. While the prototype did exist in 1973, it had buffers and a different nose design, so a collision of that sort would be unlikely to result in a fibreglass vs. metal impact.
 

Old Timer

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The prototype powercars 41001 & 41002 were built in 1972 with glass fibre cabs.

There was much debate with the Trade Union from 1972/73 onwards about the safety of fibre glass as opposed to metal, something that was not settled until the HST shunting collision I mentioned.

I was correct therefore in my year, as a little research would have revealed.

Whilst I may not always be spot on with accuracy to the degree I prefer, I generally aim to be in the very high 90% although memory does sometimes play tricks. Anyway irrespective, I am one of the very few on here I believe who was working on the Railway in the early 1970s, so I lived through all of this. I do particularly remember the glass fibre cab debate.
 

TGV

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GRP is an odd one - it has great tensile strength, but in 12 years of engineering design, I've only come across it once or twice and found it's structural performance in the real world to be wanting. Carbon fibre is a different matter, but it has a more structured matrix and can't be directly compared - especially when all the different pre-preg sheets are considered.

The benefit of GRP in this case - the relatively complex non-linear compound surface curves are easily moulded but difficult to fabricate in steel or ally. However in impact tests as stated it always looks worse than it probably is. That said, a steel body structure would have probably lost more shape, but wouldn't have fractured as much.

GRP is really preferred in cases where ultimate strength isn't the prime driver, but weight and form are.
 

Aictos

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Bombardier have unveiled a new nose for the Electrostars (which it was planned to have on the 379s but they've now gone for the gangwayed version - new cab is full width only)

tn_bombardier-electrostar2-impression.jpg

Looks like a futurist cross between a Voyager/Pioneer and a Electrostar!
Quite nice by the way, :)
 

LE Greys

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That's why you'll notice a lot of new cab designs. The 380 is probably the first unit to the new standards, the sloping front hides a lot more reinforcement/protection then the earlier Desiros.

Bombardier have unveiled a new nose for the Electrostars (which it was planned to have on the 379s but they've now gone for the gangwayed version - new cab is full width only)

tn_bombardier-electrostar2-impression.jpg

Very similar to the South African Gautrain.
 

Old Timer

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The Daily Wail is right up to date with this story - only 4 days late.

And what they have written, as usual, is absolute *******. I think the speed limit though Lavington is 110 - still, "don't let the facts get in the way......."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...river-120mph-express-struck-falling-tree.html
Oh dear such angst and bile.

If you had bothered to do just a LITTLE research rather than making yourself look a fool, the story was taken from a local reporter on a Wiltshire paper.

You can find the same story pretty much word for word on this site http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/8267034.Driver_hurt_after_train_hits_a_tree/

For future reference the words "A Daily Mail reporter" is newspaper shorthand for a story written by a non-Daily Mail source.

The story on the Wiltshire website appears to be factual so what is so sensationalist about it ?

On a slightly different tack, for someone who so disdains the paper you certainly appear to read it. Why ???

Is it some sort of thing that excites you ?

I dont read the newspaper, and I dont go around finding reports from it. It seems only those who claim to hate it spend their leisure time doing so.
 

starrymarkb

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Oh dear such angst and bile.

If you had bothered to do just a LITTLE research rather than making yourself look a fool, the story was taken from a local reporter on a Wiltshire paper.

You can find the same story pretty much word for word on this site http://www.thisiswiltshire.co.uk/news/headlines/8267034.Driver_hurt_after_train_hits_a_tree/

For future reference the words "A Daily Mail reporter" is newspaper shorthand for a story written by a non-Daily Mail source.

The story on the Wiltshire website appears to be factual so what is so sensationalist about it ?

On a slightly different tack, for someone who so disdains the paper you certainly appear to read it. Why ???

Is it some sort of thing that excites you ?

I dont read the newspaper, and I dont go around finding reports from it. It seems only those who claim to hate it spend their leisure time doing so.

Ah I can explain word for wordness - this is Wiltshire belongs to the Daily Mail group... so the national paper has lifted the story from the local rag...
 

moonrakerz

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Oh dear such angst and bile.

If you had bothered to do just a LITTLE research rather than making yourself look a fool, the story was taken from a local reporter on a Wiltshire paper.

Just who is looking foolish ?

The Daily Mail is renowned for picking up second/third hand stories and reporting them days after the rest of the media. As you admit to not reading this astute journal, your ignorance is perhaps understandable !

I read most of the National Press, to get, (hopefully !) a balanced view of a particular story. I take it you just read the Guardian or some other purveyor of - "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth", to get the "true" facts.

You ask:- "The story on the Wiltshire website appears to be factual so what is so sensationalist about it ?" The answer is quite simple - the story is full of gross inaccuracies. (Apart from which - I didn't say it was "sensationalist", still - if your accusing me of using words I didn't, helps your argument !!)
Perhaps I could also suggest that the Daily Mail does more than a "LITTLE research" before blindly re-printing a story.

I DID DO my research:
1. The line speed at the site of the accident was 110mph - therefore the train WAS NOT travelling at "more than 120mph".
2. The damaged train was not "pushed" by a "shunter" - it was hauled by an extremely powerful Class 59 - most probably because anything less powerful would have had great difficulty in moving a 450 ton (approx) train with flats worn on EVERY wheel.
3. "I be a country bumkin" who lives not a million miles from the site of the incident - I am fully aware of the inaccuracies of the local press - had I known where the "Daily Mail Reporter" got his story from I would, perhaps, have heaped a little more "bile" upon it.

The Mail story did have a very good original photograph however, which was the main reason I made my post.

Edit: Just seen starrymarkb's post - wasn't aware of that - Ta !
 

43034 The Black Horse

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The prototype powercars 41001 & 41002 were built in 1972 with glass fibre cabs.

There was much debate with the Trade Union from 1972/73 onwards about the safety of fibre glass as opposed to metal, something that was not settled until the HST shunting collision I mentioned.

I was correct therefore in my year, as a little research would have revealed.

Whilst I may not always be spot on with accuracy to the degree I prefer, I generally aim to be in the very high 90% although memory does sometimes play tricks. Anyway irrespective, I am one of the very few on here I believe who was working on the Railway in the early 1970s, so I lived through all of this. I do particularly remember the glass fibre cab debate.

You then went on to say

"Back in 1973 the same sort of arguements were doing the rounds, and fortunately/unfortunately, the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services. I believe it was a Landore-based 47."

Which reads like the crash happened in '73.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think he's getting at the fact that the squadron HST's didn't enter service until 1976. While the prototype did exist in 1973, it had buffers and a different nose design, so a collision of that sort would be unlikely to result in a fibreglass vs. metal impact.

I believe the prototype didn't enter WR until 74.
 

GearJammer

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The damaged train was not "pushed" by a "shunter" - it was hauled by an extremely powerful Class 59 - most probably because anything less powerful would have had great difficulty in moving a 450 ton (approx) train with flats worn on EVERY wheel.

I expect it was the only thing available at Westbury to do the job!

That driver was a very lucky chap.... i think he ought to go buy a lottery ticket!
 

Old Timer

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You then went on to say

"Back in 1973 the same sort of arguements were doing the rounds, and fortunately/unfortunately, the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services. I believe it was a Landore-based 47."

Which reads like the crash happened in '73.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


I believe the prototype didn't enter WR until 74.
Read my words again, and note especially the commas.
Back in 1973 the same sort of arguements were doing the rounds, and fortunately/unfortunately, the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services.
Now read it again
.....the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services....
 
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Could somebody educate me as to what would cause every single vehicle to slide/ Isn't the WSP independent on each vehicle?
 

O L Leigh

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Bombardier have unveiled a new nose for the Electrostars (which it was planned to have on the 379s but they've now gone for the gangwayed version - new cab is full width only)

tn_bombardier-electrostar2-impression.jpg

[topic drift]

Not so.

This the artist's impression of the Electostar 2. There was never any suggestion that the Cl379 would be an Electrostar 2, and it certainly would never have had that cab for more reasons than just the requirement for a gangway between units.

[/topic drift]

Carry on.

O L Leigh
 

TDK

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Could somebody educate me as to what would cause every single vehicle to slide/ Isn't the WSP independent on each vehicle?

If all the wheels lock the WSP "thinks" the train is at a stand as there is no speed detected, this is the main reason for a train that is what we call completely flatted!

I had it happen to me on the way to Epsom Downs in an 8 car 455, a passenger pulled the Pass Com, emergency brake application on a dreadfully slippy rail and all the wheels locked. No wsp activity, speedo to zero and stayed there until I stopped, train had to be skated and the line was shut for 24 hours for the recovery of the train!
 

O L Leigh

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I'm not going to trawl through half a dozen pages of bickering, so could someone tell me if there is any suggestion that the train got into an all-wheel slide.

Personally I find that highly unlikely, especially on a train that length and at this time of year. Even in the worst of the leaf-fall I've yet to get a much lighter EMU into anything even remotely approaching an all-wheel slide.

O L Leigh
 
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If all the wheels lock the WSP "thinks" the train is at a stand as there is no speed detected, this is the main reason for a train that is what we call completely flatted!

I had it happen to me on the way to Epsom Downs in an 8 car 455, a passenger pulled the Pass Com, emergency brake application on a dreadfully slippy rail and all the wheels locked. No wsp activity, speedo to zero and stayed there until I stopped, train had to be skated and the line was shut for 24 hours for the recovery of the train!

Cheers for the reply. I'm not sure how EMU's work but on an HST each vehicle has it's own WSP rack so i thought it'd be unlikely for all vehicles to slide. When the wheels lock the WSP should release it momentarily which would then register a speed and apply the brakes again.

I'm not going to trawl through half a dozen pages of bickering, so could someone tell me if there is any suggestion that the train got into an all-wheel slide.

Personally I find that highly unlikely, especially on a train that length and at this time of year. Even in the worst of the leaf-fall I've yet to get a much lighter EMU into anything even remotely approaching an all-wheel slide.

O L Leigh

I heard from an FGW source that it had the day after it happened.
 

43034 The Black Horse

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Read my words again, and note especially the commas.
Now read it again

Which again makes it look like you're saying the HST squadron services started in 73...

I can note commas, ta. Got an A* in my English coursework.

Just to be sure I'm not reading it well, I got to other people to read it too. They both agreed with me.
 

O L Leigh

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Internal sources are not necessarily the most reliable, even though they ought to be the best informed. I've seen this for myself and have learned never to believe everything you have been told. Often when you talk to a person directly involved the story turns out to be completely different.

O L Leigh
 

Old Timer

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Moonrakerz
This whole fixation people such as you have with the Daily Mail would actually be quite funny if it were not so serious.

Now there are a number of newspapers that I consider to be little more than toilet paper and thus I do not read them unless there is a very very specific reason to do so. This is not often.

Now we have yourself who is obviously a billious Daily Mail hater yet you read it :roll:

Why ?

You say you want to get a balanced view, yet it seems that everything it prints you deride, clearly evidenced by what you write.

For a newspaper that is so seemingly unpleasant it sells a considerable number of copies and continues to increase its sales over time whilst others lose sales. It is also a very difficult newspaper to buy after about 11am, in fact it is the only one the I regularly see to have sold out way before any other newspaper, and I travel around an awful lot so it is not a local thing.

Maybe they are all being bought by Daily Mail haters who need to get their daily fix ? I don't know, you tell me ? :)

So clearly there are several millions who read it find it acceptable, and indeed so did several members of the former Labour Government, including Gordon Brown, who along with a number of other Labour Cabinet Ministers was actually quite happy to publicly praise the quality of its journalism. Make of that what you will.

I also know that Alistair Campbell, and Tony Bliar were avid readers, and may still well be. :D :D

Now to me that would suggest that either several million people are wrong, or chaps such as yourself are outside of the majority, i.e. are in the minority.

You suggest I read the Grauniad. Now that IS an interesting paper. Insofar as hypocricy is concerned, in terms of its employment practices it equals if not outranks (something hard to do) the sheer and utter disdain that Labour has for the ordinary working man. Amazingly a newspaper that claims to be the beacon of Liberalism, operates employment practices that would make its own headlines were they practised by anyone other than a Leftist rag. Of course in the journey through Socialism that is OK because its in the "Cause".

Take another so called bastion of truth and free speech, the daily Mirror. This is the rag whose Labour supporting former MP owner used as his own private bank, and in doing so destroyed the pension rights of its employees. A number of its reporters still rush to his defence. Of course it is a Left Wing paper so a little detail like that does not matter as long as the battle against the Conservatives continues, and the disingenuous dribble, distortions and lies that it purveys are readily swallowed by its ever gullible readers. :roll: :roll: :roll:

It has also not only operated a share-tipping scam which enriched the reporters and the editor, but during the Miners Strike it ran a vicious, untrue and ultimately provable vendetta against Arthur Scargill with various untrue allegations made. Now I am no friend of Scargill but I find it stomach churning yet somehow so predictable that a Left Wing newspaper would operate in that manner.

You will thus see why I find it so strange that you come on here as part of a regular enclave, to criticise the Daily Mail. Your criticism being that it printed some akin to sensationalist (this being the ultimate intent in your wording and commentary in my opinion), yet ultimately admitting that it took the source from a local paper.

Newspapers are notorious for the inaccuracy of their reporting partly because they do not have the in depth knowledge and partly because their aim is to sell newspapers not report the truth - see comments above.

If you really want to rant about sensationalist media reporting then I suggest you need to take a closer look at some of the Leftist press, who will take any Railway accident and seek to make a political point out of it in a way that does not happen in the Right Wing press.

Of course with your wide range of reading you will already know this , which again makes your attack on the Daily Mail clearly driven by something other than the quality.

Years ago the Times would have been considered to have been a paper where one could get a balanced view but no longer.

More and more it seems that the balanced view comes from the Daily Telegraph, the Independent having become a poorly written (but at least orthographically accurate) illegitimate prodigy of the Grauniad, populated by economically obtuse journalists.

None of the above is a personal attack upon you by the way, you are free to live your life as you wish as far as I am concerned and hold whatever beliefs you want, but simply some observations as they appear to me.
 
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Internal sources are not necessarily the most reliable, even though they ought to be the best informed. I've seen this for myself and have learned never to believe everything you have been told. Often when you talk to a person directly involved the story turns out to be completely different.

O L Leigh

Fair comment. Any idea where the set has gone to?
 

TGV

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For what it's worth - I've never known a train to have all wheels lock up either. But I'm not saying it's never happened - like O L Leigh says, just my own experience to go by. It's the only one I trust!
 

matt

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Any chance we can keep this on topic as opposed to moaning about different newspapers. Ta
 

The_Stig

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Cheers for the reply. I'm not sure how EMU's work but on an HST each vehicle has it's own WSP rack so i thought it'd be unlikely for all vehicles to slide. When the wheels lock the WSP should release it momentarily which would then register a speed and apply the brakes again.

Yes, each car has its own WSP rack that monitors the axles.
 

TGV

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I haven't bought a newspaper for over 5 years. I just can't see the point in paying for and carrying one when I have unlimited internet on my phone, 24h news channels at home, the pub and even some major stations and of course the internet - all of which are far more up to date than any biasaed, opinionated, poorly writted rag. Surely I can't be alone in this? Off topic.

Anyway on topic: Leaves on the line are indeed a major problem. Especially when still attached to the tree.
 

richw

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Which again makes it look like you're saying the HST squadron services started in 73...

I can note commas, ta. Got an A* in my English coursework.

Just to be sure I'm not reading it well, I got to other people to read it too. They both agreed with me.


this is not an english class though its a forum stop being pedantic about someones grammar, you understand what they're trying to say your just being awkward!
 
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