FGW HST hits tree

[whoshotjimmi]

May be me being thick, but can someone tell me how a train crashed into a tree?

 

[Vulcan]

If wind breaks a branch off and it falls onto the railway. Or by the look of this one, overhanging the railway at cab height.

 

[yorkie]

More pics:

http://demupostings.fotopic.net/c1870492_1.html

http://tomcurtisrailgallery.fotopic.net/c1870421.html

 

[Dreadnought]

The pretendalino isn't electric, its whatever the loco pulling it is, as long as said loco can operate with a Mk3 DVT. Class 67s can, so thats probably what would happen if FGW hired it.

Class 67s don't have the TDM system required to be controlled by the DVT. The EWS management train and WSMR sets have been wired throughout and modified to allow them to use 67s in push pull mode.

57s are not fitted with push pull and I believe the 47/7s used a different version of TDM to control the DBSOs and cannot be used in push pull mode with a Mk3 DVT.

If the set was to be used it would need to be top and tailed.

 

[fgwrich]

More pics:

http://demupostings.fotopic.net/c1870492_1.html

http://tomcurtisrailgallery.fotopic.net/c1870421.html

hock:

I was down west when this had happened and thanks to said tree, managed to cause quite a few delays thought the day...

My thoughts especially to the driver - whilst it's a fibreglass cab, having a tree branch come your way at 90 mph isn’t fun at all!

As for the set itself - looks like it will be spending quite a whilst up at brush having a replacement cab fitted - quite a lot of the HST's had there cabs removed & replaced / repaired during the refurbishment anyway, and there is as already said 43101 - Which after spending quite some time in storage in Long Marston, and if i recall correctly, had a couple of plants/weeds & a small tree growing from the shell of the loco!

So im fairly sure there are still some replacement HST noses available somewhere - weather it be Brush or Crewe im not sure, but pretty sure anyway...

WSP System will also need a repair/replacement, and potentially new wheel sets thought the set...possibly even some attention to the electrical systems...

Even so - thats another set down for FGW, though i doubt the use of another LHCS Set being brought in...

 

[Royston Vasey]

There is some conflicting info in another place (Messroom) about whether Angel and/or Porterbrook have spare cabs or not. There are allegedly some at Laira.

 

[richw]

on top of this another unit hit a pylon somewhere between slough and paddington, taking that unit out damaged on sunday as well!

 

[daikilo]

Sounds like the "wrong type of tree"...

Having seen the photos, if I were a driver I would want to know where the rigid driver-protection safety frame is in that cab. Trees are part of nature and we do not control what they are caused to do.

That said, methinks this concern has been known since about 1974 and has not prevented decades and millions/billions? of miles of operations without significant incedent until a few days ago.

 

[scotsman]

A friend and myself were discussing this and we reckon the driver must have hid behind the seat?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Sounds like a naiive question, but who would manufacture a new HST cab? Have any new cabs been fitted since Privatisation?

DML at Devonport has the tooling to manufacture new GRP cabs for HSTs. They did have one in stock, belonging to one of the two ROSCOs that own most of the HST power cars, but that may now have been used.

Despite the fact that DML has pretty much withdrawn from rail, they retain a high level of competence in GRP work, and I'd be surprised if they let that drop.

The more serious issue here is that if a tree can do that to an HST cab, what does that say about its crashworthiness in relation to current standards and possible life extension if IEP gets canned?

 

[Vulcan]

A friend and myself were discussing this and we reckon the driver must have hid behind the seat?

He may have legged it into the engine room, which apparently is what drivers are advised to do when theres nothing else they can do. I think I'd have tried it given only a completely fibreglass cab for protection, He's very lucky to have come out of that with only minor injurys.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The more serious issue here is that if a tree can do that to an HST cab, what does that say about its crashworthiness in relation to current standards and possible life extension if IEP gets canned?

Not sure what you're getting at there, there may be an issue over the driver's protection but worth binning a fleet of perfectly serviceable high speed trains we can't afford to replace? I would say not. Perhaps what is going on at Brush at the moment, including the replacement of the cabs of Grand Central's power cars, may enhance the driver protection. We will see.

In terms of crashworthiness of the HSTs in terms of a passengers point of view, the cab being made of fibreglass/steel/kevlar is fairly irrelevant. The mass and momentum of a HST at speed renders the material of the very front end insignificant in an accident.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Not sure what you're getting at there, there may be an issue over the driver's protection but worth binning a fleet of perfectly serviceable high speed trains we can't afford to replace?

I agree from a financial point of view, but not from an engineering safety point of view. The current standards for crashworthiness are in force because of what we have learned from experience and we have clearly learned that providing the driver with a survival zone makes sense.

Perhaps what is going on at Brush at the moment, including the replacement of the cabs of Grand Central's power cars, may enhance the driver protection. We will see.

I stand to be corrected, but although the GC power cars will have new cab desks whilst at Brush, they will not have new cabs. Two of the six had their cabs removed when last at DML and the remainder were thoroughly inspected for structural integrity.

In terms of crashworthiness of the HSTs in terms of a passengers point of view, the cab being made of fibreglass/steel/kevlar is fairly irrelevant. The mass and momentum of a HST at speed renders the material of the very front end insignificant in an accident.

From the passenger's point of view, I agree with you but again, current standards dictate that the front end design should incorporate energy absorbing zones, which HST power cars don't have.

When making recommendations following an incident, should the safety bods have in their minds that they hadn't better recommend expensive safety improvements to train designs, in case we hit a recession at some indeterminate time in the future and can't afford that level of safety? I think not.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I stand to be corrected, but although the GC power cars will have new cab desks whilst at Brush, they will not have new cabs. Two of the six had their cabs removed when last at DML and the remainder were thoroughly inspected for structural integrity.

The first two GC cabs themselves were taken away on a low loader for scrap a few weeks ago.

Here are the Easter Island style heads themselves, posted by Stacey here

http://staceys-fots.fotopic.net/p65434734.html

On that note, I wonder if these have been dismantled yet? The shells at least may be useful for 43041, even if new wiring/desk is needed.

I do broadly agree with the rest of your post.

 

[daikilo]

He may have legged it into the engine room, which apparently is what drivers are advised to do when theres nothing else they can do. I think I'd have tried it given only a completely fibreglass cab for protection, He's very lucky to have come out of that with only minor injurys.

I doubt that this driver had enough time to even realise what was about to hit him and even less to move aft. I also doubt he even realised what damage such a positioned tree could do.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

The first two GC cabs themselves were taken away on a low loader for scrap a few weeks ago.

Here are the Easter Island style heads themselves, posted by Stacey here

http://staceys-fots.fotopic.net/p65434734.html

On that note, I wonder if these have been dismantled yet? The shells at least may be useful for 43041, even if new wiring/desk is needed.

I do broadly agree with the rest of your post.

I still have doubts regarding those cabs being scrapped. It's interesting to note that the truck is heading "South West", presumably on the M5, and wonder whether they were being taken to DML at Devonport for repair.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I would point out that in the case of a tree impact like this, the force is not going where most of the force usually goes when an HST hits something, which is the sharp angle at the lower front.

Fibreglass can win against steel; remember the HST that hit a 47 in, I think, Edinburgh some years ago after one of them ran away a short distance?

The HST was more or less intact; the 47's cab was more or less totally destroyed.

Can't remember exactly when it was, but it must be about 15 - 20 years ago now; pictures were circulating of the results.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I still have doubts regarding those cabs being scrapped. It's interesting to note that the truck is heading "South West", presumably on the M5, and wonder whether they were being taken to DML at Devonport for repair.

Fair point, I'd wondered why they were on the M5 too... alternatively could they have been acquired by First, Angel or Porterbrook for spares at Laira, for such eventuality as this?

Oh the intrigue!

 

[Dreadnought]

I doubt that this driver had enough time to even realise what was about to hit him and even less to move aft. I also doubt he even realised what damage such a positioned tree could do.

http://tomcurtisrailgallery.fotopic.net/p65868286.html Here is a photo (not mine) of the cab with a caption that explains what the driver did when he saw the impending collision.

 

[The_Stig]

From the passenger's point of view, I agree with you but again, current standards dictate that the front end design should incorporate energy absorbing zones, which HST power cars don't have.

Energy absorbing zones does not mean that the cab has to absorb the energy. Perhaps the underframe of the vehicle is designed to absorb any impact?

 

[LE Greys]

Fibreglass can win against steel; remember the HST that hit a 47 in, I think, Edinburgh some years ago after one of them ran away a short distance?

From sailing experience, fibreglass can be incredibly strong, but tends to fracture when it breaks rather than twist or crumple like metal. The after-effects of a boat collision can look very like what we see here.

 

[yorkie]

From the passenger's point of view, I agree with you but again, current standards dictate that the front end design should incorporate energy absorbing zones, which HST power cars don't have.

Yeah zones that, in some cases, would kill the guard! I think I'll agree to disagree with the H&S mafia!

When making recommendations following an incident, should the safety bods have in their minds that they hadn't better recommend expensive safety improvements to train designs, in case we hit a recession at some indeterminate time in the future and can't afford that level of safety? I think not.

An alternative would be to put everyone on the roads, where they are in more danger. I think that would actually make some H&S fanatics happy!

In fact I can see some rural lines being closed because safety systems like TPWS cost too much, with the result that passengers are forced onto a less safe mode of transport. It will be less safe, but the H&S mafia will have all their boxes ticked and will be happy.

 

[Old Timer]

Fibre-glass performs better than metal in many cases.

Back in 1973 the same sort of arguements were doing the rounds, and fortunately/unfortunately, the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services. I believe it was a Landore-based 47.

The 47 had to be sent to Crewe for a cab rebuild, the HST remained in service and memory suggests it took up its booked working.

If you look at the various HST collisions, the cab pod has basically remained intact, with Drivers being killed by track materials and equiment invading the cab, i.e. Ufton Nervet.

 

[455driver]

The current standards for crashworthiness are in force because of what we have learned from experience and we have clearly learned that providing the driver with a survival zone makes sense.

Where on a modern unit is this survival zone?

I stand to be corrected, but although the GC power cars will have new cab desks whilst at Brush, they will not have new cabs. Two of the six had their cabs removed when last at DML and the remainder were thoroughly inspected for structural integrity.

It looks like those cabs are going for repair rather than scrap, who wants a fibreglass cab, there is naff all metal in them for the effort.

From the passenger's point of view, I agree with you but again, current standards dictate that the front end design should incorporate energy absorbing zones, which HST power cars don't have.

Doesnt this contradict the top part of this post?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah zones that, in some cases, would kill the guard! I think I'll agree to disagree with the H&S mafia!

Dont you mean driver Yorkie.
I was talking to a trainee driver and he didnt look very happy,when I asked him what was up he said it was because the cab IS the "crumple zone" and its best not to be in there if there is an accident.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Where on a modern unit is this survival zone?


It looks like those cabs are going for repair rather than scrap, who wants a fibreglass cab, there is naff all metal in them for the effort.




Doesnt this contradict the top part of this post?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Dont you mean driver Yorkie.
I was talking to a trainee driver and he didnt look very happy,when I asked him what was up he said it was because the cab IS the "crumple zone" and its best not to be in there if there is an accident.

The new standards, which will be introduced "soon" demand a crumple zone AND a survival cell. Who'd be a train designer?!???!

What's missing on an HST power car cab is the hefty corner pillar that was advocated after the Clapham disaster in 1988 (for those that are interested, the investigation report is here). Whilst most of the attention focussed on Mk1 coaches having seperate body and chassis and as a result over-riding, a recommendation that was implemented was a beefing up of crashworthiness standards to increase driver protection at the points each side of the windscreen, by introducing heavy corner pillars. The first classes to benefit from these were Networkers and Class 323, the first new builds after the implementation of the new standards.

I'm not sure, but I think these requirements have since been relaxed (there is often an over-reaction when disasters happen) and, of course the main recommendation of the Hidden Report, which was never implemented, was the introduction of ATP, though we did get TPWS, which is a sort of half-way-house.

Please don't misunderstand, I'm not a H & S freak by any stretch of the imagination, but if our trains were unsafe, the ultimate outcome would be that people would not use them and that would have the same effect as that of an unaffordable railway, with closures and doom and gloom resulting.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I had taken in good faith the caption of that image but Pumbaa confirms here that the cabs have gone to Devonport for attention, not for disposal. Shame, I wondered if we were going to see a facelifted (or strengthened) version!

Crumple zones are found at carriage ends in modern units such as 390s, and the effect is cumulative. Whether or not the cab is made of crumpling material makes little difference to the overall energy dissipation offered by the whole unit. In addition, energy dissipation is safest in a straight line down the train, like a concertina. This ensures the maximum number of vehicles remain on the rails and upright. A cab however, would not always be hit head on (e.g. Ladbroke Grove or in the case of a leading vehicle derailment where the power car may be skewed off the rails) and a crumple zone is much harder to design in.

As has also been said, fibreglass is very strong in compression, and a pointed structure has considerable strength as energy is dissipated efficiently. I'm not surprised it deformed the sheet metal of a 47 cab

 

[starrymarkb]

Where on a modern unit is this survival zone?


It looks like those cabs are going for repair rather than scrap, who wants a fibreglass cab, there is naff all metal in them for the effort.




Doesnt this contradict the top part of this post?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Dont you mean driver Yorkie.
I was talking to a trainee driver and he didnt look very happy,when I asked him what was up he said it was because the cab IS the "crumple zone" and its best not to be in there if there is an accident.

That's why you'll notice a lot of new cab designs. The 380 is probably the first unit to the new standards, the sloping front hides a lot more reinforcement/protection then the earlier Desiros.

Bombardier have unveiled a new nose for the Electrostars (which it was planned to have on the 379s but they've now gone for the gangwayed version - new cab is full width only)

 

[Wyvern]

The tree crashed through the power cars cab side and exited through the windscreen luckily missing the driver

Going back to the opening post would any other class have fared any better and would all the protections that have been proposed in this thread have made any difference?

 

[Kingfisher200262]

Going back to the opening post would any other class have fared any better and would all the protections that have been proposed in this thread have made any difference?

That's a very good question and I guess the answer would depend upon how big the tree was. I've seen plenty of photos of the power car, but none of the offending tree.

Are any in circulation?

 

[43034 The Black Horse]

Back in 1973 the same sort of arguements were doing the rounds, and fortunately/unfortunately, the WR managed to shunt a HST into a 47 in a carriage sidings, just about the start of the HST squadron services. I believe it was a Landore-based 47.

The 47 had to be sent to Crewe for a cab rebuild, the HST remained in service and memory suggests it took up its booked working.

If you look at the various HST collisions, the cab pod has basically remained intact, with Drivers being killed by track materials and equiment invading the cab, i.e. Ufton Nervet.

Er.......