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FGW 5 year direct award

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HarleyDavidson

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The problem you're going to have with extending the Waterloo services is crewing, there will be PNB issues as well as the units having to go the extra distance.

The solution would be to establish a new maintenance depot at Exmouth Jn on the former steam depot site & crew signing on point at Exeter Central, where you do have the bay platform with the potential to store a couple of units.
 
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Bald Rick

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If there were a Forum drinking game then I'd have "Waterloo - Barnstaple" up there with "fast services from Leeds to Glasgow via the S&C" and "putting 456s on the Lymington branch" :lol:

... And "I was I a hurry and didn't know I couldn't buy a ticket on the train, honest"
 

Parallel

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I'm not sure if I'm happy or not about the direct award. I think it could be a good thing with all the changes that are set to happen with electrification and cascading of stock, and FGW have had the franchise now 7 years so should know better than anyone else how to run routes and the service that people on their network want.

The limitation is that as it's only going to last for about 5 years, they aren't going to risk anything that won't pay for itself within the 5 year period. This is also a good thing as others have mentioned as it hopefully means tidying up and repairing the stock. I'd say the main issues that need addressing on the west fleet are:

- The leaking roofs on the 158s + 143s - This summer I've been on three different 158s which have had water leaking through the ceiling.
- The air conditioning on the 158s/166s - The reliability of aircon across the 158s and 166s is far from great.
- Replacement of flooring on some 150s + 158s - Really grimy and would probably be better just to rip it out and fit some new flooring. The carpets on some of the 158s should have been replaced a few years ago. General refurbishment of older fleet which FGW still heavily rely on.
- Addressing overcrowding. Not exclusive to FGW but with the cascading of stock, hopefully FGW will still be allocated a fair amount of stock from this.
- Improved frequency to services - Possibly Weymouth, Worcester, Barnstaple and Brighton.

That said, I do appreciate how FGW communicate with groups in the local community, i.e. the Transwilts services and they seem to be very passionate about the areas they serve, particularly Devon & Cornwall. Their twitter staff are also very good at what looks like a very difficult job!
 
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HarleyDavidson

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Brighton won't happen. It's too busy & cluttered up by SN.

Weymouth & Barnstaple would need extensive track relaying as the single line sections are so long & of course you'll need the signalling to go with it.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Weymouth & Barnstaple would need extensive track relaying as the single line sections are so long & of course you'll need the signalling to go with it.

Just had a gander on RailMiles - Castle Cary-Yeovil and Yeovil-Maiden Newton are both ~12 miles, and Maiden Newton-Dorchester 7 miles: I'm unaware of line speeds down there but I would have thought the single track is sufficiently short to accommodate an hourly or so service, though the timetable might have to be built around a crossing point.
 
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Parallel

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Brighton won't happen. It's too busy & cluttered up by SN.

Weymouth & Barnstaple would need extensive track relaying as the single line sections are so long & of course you'll need the signalling to go with it.

Yeah, even a two-hourly service doesn't help the poor punctuality on the Heart Of Wessex line... I've been logging the delays on a spreadsheet and it's not unusual to see 4 + trains that are running around 15 late throughout the day. Might be more hassle than it's worth to make changes/lay new track, but it's probably quite profitable in summer, and could become even more profitable with extra services.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Just had a gander on RailMiles - Castle Cary-Yeovil and Yeovil-Maiden Newton are both ~12 miles, and Maiden Newton-Dorchester 7 miles: I'm unaware of line speeds down there but I would have thought the single track is sufficiently short to accommodate an hourly or so service, though the timetable might have to be built around a crossing point.

What might help the Castle Scary - Yeovil section is a station at Sparkford next to the A303 to entice people travelling to Yeovil to leave their cars there rather than drive into Yeovil itself, it could also be used to get people up to Scary and thence onto Bristol, Westbury & London.

But as I see it the line does need some serious upgrade work (maybe dynamic loops) before you can sensibly consider expanding the service.
 

fgwrich

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There should be a host of improvements due for the West Fleet and LTV units coming up in this 5 year Direct Award - The West Fleet 150s have been suffering for a few years now with bodywork issues, and have been requiring a C6 overhaul - this had been put off once already by those concerned (DfT/Angel/Porterbook/FGW) because of the uncertainty over who would be operating the franchise in the next few years as a result of the West Coast refranchising debacle. So there should be an increase in units going for their CX overhauls and returning in FGW Blue - which would include interior tidying up and DDA bogs for the 165/166s.
 

w1bbl3

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What's the point of franchising and signing contract terms if they can just be ignored?

To say nothing of First Group exercising their Greater Western contractual break clause 2 years ago and yet still keeping the keys for 7 years beyond the date when they those keys should have been re-tendered.

The mess may be of the DfT's making, but why does that mean the incumbent gets to carry on regardless?

I don't buy the argument either that major infrastructure changes should mean the incumbent gets to continue. Franchise dates were known. Infrastructure improvement dates were known.

What we have is the worst of all worlds. No competition to invigorate the Greater Western franchise. We should be having a franchise renewal precisely because there are major infrastructure and rolling stock changes. Get the competing interests bidding now to show what they can offer.

Large listed companies are inherently risk advise to keep shareholders satisfied. Re-tendering in a period of uncertainty and upheaval would have only resulted in DfT achieving a poor franchise price, continuing with the incumbent on a management contract is best value for DfT.

It will be interesting to see what items DfT are prepared to allow funding for in terms of fleet modernisation / life extension, will the HST standard class coaches be refreshed internally or left to degenerate? The regional fleet obviously needs a lot of work will this now happen or will the extension only allow minimum work to keep them operating if replacement is to happen within the next term.?

TOC's currently have no control over rolling stock available, no control over infrastructure and little control over timetables with DfT specifying the lot. The only innovations possible are in on-board service, GWML trains run with high load factors throughout the day ex-pad so there is not much that can be done regarding on board service.

Crossrail poses an interesting problem in terms of paddington>reading IEP/HST services. The now agreed extension of Crossrail to reading could see much of the commuter traffic transfer away from GW to CR for commuters heading to points beyond pad within central London. Equally it could act to funnel more traffic to GW as work locations further east become commutable ex-reading/Thames valley. The former has negative effect on franchise revenues the latter a possible one, assuming that seat capacity is available.

Remember the original Greater Western franchise assumed that HST2 would be fully in service by before the end of franchise (2016) and that no other improvement works would happen. Electrification of the GWML/SWML route was at that point a pipe dream and crossrail a maybe but beyond the proposed franchise term.

Running a franchise tender prior to modernisation or during is massive risk for all parties as highlighted by the WCML modernisation being accompanied by a innovative franchise bid that ended up rather rapidly as a straight management contract when Virgin realised that basic business assumptions about the modernised route where not realistic for various reasons. This franchise has not yet had a commercial re-tendering since original award and will have effectively run for 20 years as a concession.

TOC's are unlikely to make the same mistake again in preparing bids.
 

HowardGWR

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Just had a gander on RailMiles - Castle Cary-Yeovil and Yeovil-Maiden Newton are both ~12 miles, and Maiden Newton-Dorchester 7 miles: I'm unaware of line speeds down there but I would have thought the single track is sufficiently short to accommodate an hourly or so service, though the timetable might have to be built around a crossing point.

It could help if the trains didn't potentially stop at every farmyard. An OP is suggesting that Sparkford should be reopened. He's right, but the service is trying to be an inter-urban connector and local stopper at the same time and fails on both counts. If Castle Cary to Yeovil were re-doubled, it would be a very useful alternative route to Exeter as well for FGW and could allow an Exeter to Swindon trajectory to be serviced.

I agree with OPS that all this stuff needs to await completion of the huge changes on the main lines. Letting FGW do a caretaker job (at a price) seems the best way forward.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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It's going to be a big month for First Group.
There's this direct award (not just an automatic extension of the current terms), and then we have the imminent judgment of the Scotrail and East Coast bids.
First could clean up, or have to go into retrench mode, depending on the results.
 

21C101

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Brighton won't happen. It's too busy & cluttered up by SN.

Weymouth & Barnstaple would need extensive track relaying as the single line sections are so long & of course you'll need the signalling to go with it.

But Barnstaple is already hourly (and they relayed about 10 miles of it last year?

The problem you're going to have with extending the Waterloo services is crewing, there will be PNB issues as well as the units having to go the extra distance.

The solution would be to establish a new maintenance depot at Exmouth Jn on the former steam depot site & crew signing on point at Exeter Central, where you do have the bay platform with the potential to store a couple of units.

SWT seem to be plotting something like that already. I've read elsewhere that the through lines at Central are supposed to be going back in as carriage sidings so SWT can park services there between trains rather than Riverside (?) where they go now.

While most trains arrive then go back to London, AIUI some arrive as 6 car then send 3 back to london then attach the other three to a later arriving 3 car after a few hours in the sidings.

So it looks like they are planning this splitting and joining to move to Central.

This site alludes indirectly to this proposal (which I think I read on SeMG)

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.o...ews-reports-and-photographs/january-26th-2014
 

starrymarkb

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That seems a bit silly when they have the New Yard at St Davids pretty much to themselves (FGW units tend to run to the Depot)
 

DDB

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Going hourly and clockface for Westbury to Weymouth was a costed option in the cancelled invitation to tender. The scheme was developed by a consultant commissioned by the local rail partnership. You can download the report from their website. http://www.heartofwessex.org.uk/partnership.html
Option A optimisation was chosen for the ITT. This is hourly clockface but only the peak trains went all the way from Weymouth to Bristol. In the middle of the day and late at night the service was Weymouth Westbury with passengers changing at Westbury. No infrastructure changes were identified as required although I think bringing back the 4th platform at Westbury was identified as helpful.

It had some form of words in it along the lines of "bidders should indicate whether there was a constraint on when the service could start due to rolling stock availability and when it might be resolved". I assume all bidders would have replied "We can't do it until electrification release more DMUs and you allow us to keep them within the franchise!"

Presumably this direct award would cover the time when DMUs are released so I hope it contains an agreement to redeploy the DMUs rather than wait for the next franchise.

DDB
 

swt_passenger

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That seems a bit silly when they have the New Yard at St Davids pretty much to themselves (FGW units tend to run to the Depot)

With many of these ideas, someone thinks of a solution and then desperately tries to find a non existent problem to justify it... :D
 

Drsatan

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With regards to the 158 fleet: the interiors are getting increasingly worn out, the carpets are practically threadbare, and the windows are ingrained with dirt. Ideally the entire fleet needs a comprehensive refurbishment similar to the work - funded by the Welsh Assembly - carried out to ATW's 158 fleet. Installing power sockets should be a must, especially given that, from what I've noticed, the majority of journeys on Cardiff to Portsmouth services are between the larger conurbations on the route e.g. between Portsmouth and Southampton Central, between Southampton Central and Bristol TM, and from Cardiff Central to Bristol Temple Meads. Given that all three journeys are in excess of half an hour, passengers would appreciate being able to charge laptops and other electrical devices.

Now, unless this direct agreement states a refurbishment must be carried out, we won't be seeing anything, unless Porterbrook agrees to fund refurbishment beyond a 'deep clean'.
 

Aictos

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Agreed. Wessex Trains used to use Class 158s when they had a rather over plentiful fleet of them on the Devon Metro (Rather wasteful for a 90MPH unit!) which very narrowly continued on into the fringes of the FGW Franchise during the very early stages.

First ScotRail's 158741 Also made it onto the Devon Metro during the first few weeks of the FGW Franchise as a sort of preview unit to GW Commuters. Which was an odd ball - given it's ex NX ScotRail interior and Barbie colour scheme, but this was in the early day's of Alison Forster's (now NX) rather short-lived management reign.

Bringing back the 387 Argument for a moment, whilst the early batches are for use on Thameslink, there has just been another batch order committed taking the total number of units up to near 50. Co-incidental timing or the future of the Thames Valley? rather unfortunately, I'd say it's highly likely that's what will form the 165/166 replacement.

Uh, what confirmed second batch?
 

21C101

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With many of these ideas, someone thinks of a solution and then desperately tries to find a non existent problem to justify it... :D

My recollection was it was because apparently they had to pay too much to use New Yard.

Perhaps there is a hidden agenda of recovering the lost western lands as well......but I doubt it, much as it would be nice to have nine car 159s arriving at Exeter Central and dividing into sections for Plymouth via Okehampton, Exmouth and Barnstaple & Bideford (which is much nicer than Stalingrad, you wouldn't have much fun in Stalingrad Mr Hilter).


----------------------

Re Westbury - Weymouth hourly. I really dont see the point unless the 1980s plan to divert the line from Weymouth into Yeovil Junction via the built but never laid south to west curve was implemented.

The plan was that Westbury - Weymouth services would use the old down platforms at Yeovil Junction.
 

starrymarkb

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My recollection was it was because apparently they had to pay too much to use New Yard.

Perhaps there is a hidden agenda of recovering the lost western lands as well......but I doubt it, much as it would be nice to have nine car 159s arriving at Exeter Central and dividing into sections for Plymouth via Okehampton, Exmouth and Barnstaple & Bideford (which is much nicer than Stalingrad, you wouldn't have much fun in Stalingrad Mr Hilter).


----------------------

Re Westbury - Weymouth hourly. I really dont see the point unless the 1980s plan to divert the line from Weymouth into Yeovil Junction via the built but never laid south to west curve was implemented.

The plan was that Westbury - Weymouth services would use the old down platforms at Yeovil Junction.


I can't see new sidings at Central being any cheaper, NR will charge them a lot more for a new build then existing sidings ;) Also where would you put them given a 6 car 159 fills most of the platform (A 6 Car 159 is almost as long as a 7 coach Mk2 rake) - A 9 Car won't actually fit ;)
 
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21C101

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I can't see new sidings at Central being any cheaper, NR will charge them a lot more for a new build then existing sidings ;) Also where would you put them given a 6 car 159 fills most of the platform (A 6 Car 159 is almost as long as a 7 coach Mk2 rake) - A 9 Car won't actually fit ;)

As I said I'm not sure whether this is actually going to happen or why, I'm only reporting on what I read.

I think you've got a bit mixed up on platform lengths though. The two through platforms at Exeter Central are absolute monsters, at least 14 Mk1 coaches long, pretty well long enough for 12 cars worth of 159 if not longer, as this photo of a recent railtour with 13 coaches behind it shows

http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/2638729_orig.jpg

Interestingly in this photo, the fast lines have been cleared of the concrete cases and ornamental vegetation that had been grown there for years so this story may have some basis in truth?
 
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Xavi

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As I said I'm not sure whether this is actually going to happen or why, I'm only reporting on what I read.

I think you've got a bit mixed up on platform lengths though. The two through platforms at Exeter Central are absolute monsters, at least 14 Mk1 coaches long, pretty well long enough for 12 cars worth of 159 if not longer!

They are indeed very long platforms even after the up platform was shortened in mid 1980s.
 

PHILIPE

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As this is an extension, I shouldn't think there would be a lot of difference to the spec - perhaps some improvements/alterations here and there. I shouldn't think that the Franchise map would be torn up and Routes transferred to SWT or vice versa. Where would they get the additional Units from to go to Barnstaple. Leave it alone, the Devon Metro is all right and works OK (apart from the national problem of overcrowding)
 

Rapidash

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Interestingly in this photo, the fast lines have been cleared of the concrete cases and ornamental vegetation that had been grown there for years so this story may have some basis in truth?

Not a vast amount, I'd say - its been clear of vegetation for the three years I've been commuting into there ;)

Just to add to the general confusion, there's been work on/off at the siding near Exmouth junction for ages now - it's all cordoned off with security fencing, but there's nothing overly obvious going on.
 
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Carlisle

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What's the point of franchising and signing contract terms if they can just be ignored?

To say nothing of First Group exercising their Greater Western contractual break clause 2 years ago and yet still keeping the keys for 7 years beyond the date when they those keys should have been re-tendered.

The mess may be of the DfT's making, but why does that mean the incumbent gets to carry on regardless?

I don't buy the argument either that major infrastructure changes should mean the incumbent gets to continue. Franchise dates were known. Infrastructure improvement dates were known.

What we have is the worst of all worlds. No competition to invigorate the Greater Western franchise. We should be having a franchise renewal precisely because there are major infrastructure and rolling stock changes. Get the competing interests bidding now to show what they can offer.

Well said ,I would truly welcome the day one of our future governments has the courage to scrap the current franchising system, whilst it's origional intentions were very commendable, in its present guise the whole process has simply become too cumbersome,complex ,legalistic ,bureaucratic,inflexible and long drawn out , to fit in well to our railways future plans for electrification and development,the RMTs comments at the beginning of this thread make perfect sense
 
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HarleyDavidson

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Good news in my opinion, I think they do a good job.

I don't and nor do a considerable number of railstaff & passengers who use the Gatwick line. They've abandoned it because the service is so poor, with trains missing stops, whilst others cover it, it makes planning a journey a complete waste of time, trying to use it for getting to work is a joke.

Next time I want to go to Bristol, Wales or West Country, I'll go via London, at least I know I'll get there and whilst it may take longer it only costs about 75p each way or so on a priv Oyster card to go from Waterloo to Padd & vv.
 

ess

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Changing the franchise only changes the most senior managers doesn't it? Everything else stays the same? So isn't this just a case of keeping First with a franchise so they don't decide to leave rail franchising forever should they end up with no franchises?
 
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Changing the franchise only changes the most senior managers doesn't it? Everything else stays the same? So isn't this just a case of keeping First with a franchise so they don't decide to leave rail franchising forever should they end up with no franchises?

Up to a point. But new managers come with a different set of ideologies so it could have a visible effect on day-to-day running. For example we don't want them to do a psycho GOVIA and sack all the ATEs/RPIs and close all the ticket offices.

Better the devil you know.... and FG is not that a bigger devil from my viewpoint for what it's worth.
 

swt_passenger

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As this is an extension...

It isn't an extension. It is a negotiated direct award on new terms. So there is a significant difference, the existing franchise spec ends and a new one will (eventually) be published...
 
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