Fewer carriages for Cornwall?

[YorkshireBear]

9/10 either way they will have to be split to fit in the SIDINGS at Long Rock and most of the building work here is for 57s ex OC. The 802s will only be daily serviced and fuelled,sluessed and cleaned. Nothing more as that is Hitatchi work elsewhere.
We have already been informed of the number of trains of each type we shall see overnight and the longer SETs are not planned to be part of the nightly work.
I fully expect one to turn up though at some point.... !

That doesn't stop 9cars operating to penzance though does it? It may just disappear during the day or go to laira sidings?

 

[DenmarkRail]

I just saw a response that they could end up just like the voyagers! Ever been on the Manchester Picc to Penzance train? Usually 5 cars... HELL

 

[47802]

I just saw a response that they could end up just like the voyagers! Ever been on the Manchester Picc to Penzance train? Usually 5 cars... HELL

Usual Hysterics I notice but has already been said.

1. 5 car AT300 has more capacity than even a 5 car Voyager.

2. We don't know whether or not yet if the busiest will 5 car some could be 9 or 10

3. There will be an hourly Local service between Plymouth and Penzance offering at least an additional 300 seats.

 

[NSEFAN]

Usual Hysterics I notice but has already been said.

1. 5 car AT300 has more capacity than even a 5 car Voyager.

2. We don't know whether or not yet if the busiest will 5 car some could be 9 or 10

3. There will be an hourly Local service between Plymouth and Penzance offering at least an additional 300 seats.

A couple of issues with those points:
1) It's still less capacity than a 9/10 car train, so when trains are cancelled in disruption you potentially have a trainload more people trying to fit into shorter trains.

2) When running 5+5 from Paddington - Plymouth, and 5 Plymouth - Penzance, will there always be slack in the fleet to run the whole 5+5 to Penzance? Otherwise, the argument about "flexibility" is really nothing more than about cost.

3) The Voyagers were short because of a similar argument to this. "We'll double up the frequency so people will spread themselves out" was the rationale for shorter trains, except the much improved frequency resulted in demand soaring because it was much more attractive to use the train. PNZ-PLY going half hourly could have a similar effect, and as with the Voyagers it may be Too Late™ to do anything about it by the time the demand has risen to justify all trains being 9/10 car fixed formation.

 

[irish_rail]

9/10 either way they will have to be split to fit in the SIDINGS at Long Rock and most of the building work here is for 57s ex OC. The 802s will only be daily serviced and fuelled,sluessed and cleaned. Nothing more as that is Hitatchi work elsewhere.
We have already been informed of the number of trains of each type we shall see overnight and the longer SETs are not planned to be part of the nightly work.
I fully expect one to turn up though at some point.... !

The original question was will there be fewer carriages for Cornwall and the answer is more seats and more trains post Dec 2018.

This is intereating as the 5.05 pz to paddington will surely be a 9 car set as it is a pullman restaraunt from plymouth??? Or is this about to be axed as a restaurant train?

 

[co-tr-paul]

Just guessing but 5 from PZ and 5+5 from PLy....??

 

[MarkyT]

Perhaps a couple of serviced and refuelled 9-car units could go down to Penzance late the previous evening from Laira on local workings to cover the early London trains the following morning. Being only stabled and internally cleaned in the station platforms at Penzance, with water topped up as necessary, they needn't go into Long Rock depot sidings at all.

 

[The Ham]

A couple of issues with those points:
1) It's still less capacity than a 9/10 car train, so when trains are cancelled in disruption you potentially have a trainload more people trying to fit into shorter trains.

2) When running 5+5 from Paddington - Plymouth, and 5 Plymouth - Penzance, will there always be slack in the fleet to run the whole 5+5 to Penzance? Otherwise, the argument about "flexibility" is really nothing more than about cost.

3) The Voyagers were short because of a similar argument to this. "We'll double up the frequency so people will spread themselves out" was the rationale for shorter trains, except the much improved frequency resulted in demand soaring because it was much more attractive to use the train. PNZ-PLY going half hourly could have a similar effect, and as with the Voyagers it may be Too Late™ to do anything about it by the time the demand has risen to justify all trains being 9/10 car fixed formation.

Some feedback on your points:

1) there may well be disruption of a 5 coach unit turns up rather than a 9/10 coach train but that is 5 more coaches than if there's a problem with a HST under the current situation.

2) there's enough capacity to have the flexibility to have all the services as full length which currently run. However there's more 80x services going to be running throughout the day. There's going to be 2tph through Cornwall (circa 30 trains a day) rather than 12. Even if all those be services are half length that's more coaches than at present.

3) the argument here is we'll run more shorter units with more coaches overall, as well as some (possibly nearly as many as there currently are) full length trains. With regards to extra units; there are going to be so many 80x's on the network that if demand picks up in the first four years (until the start of the next franchise) the current orders will have just finished being built and so a follow on order would be easy to do. Unlike the 22x's which were out of production and would have only been for (relatively) few units.

To give an idea of the size of the orders, if XC lengthened their for coach units to 5 coaches that would have been about 40 coaches. Get to same order size would require just 17% of the 5 coach GWR units to be lengthened to 9 coaches in length. However chances are there will be calls to lengthen the 9 coach units to 10 coaches for the Bristol services.

Add in, at about the same time, the need for new units for XC and/or EMT and that's going to keep the order books busy for another few years.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we saw 80x Compatible coaches being offered for the next 10 years as there will be over 1,200 confirmed coaches on the network. That compares with about 500 in the form of the 22x fleets. That means that orders to expand the fleets, if all else was equal, would be double.

 

[D1009]

Some of these questions have been answered in an article in the latest Modern Railways into which Mark Hopwood had a personal input. As far as I am aware it has never been the intention to run an hourly service throughout the day from Paddington to Penzance. The 2+4 HSTs will be there to supplement the DMU fleet both on Cardiff to Taunton and Exeter to Penzance when it became clear that not as many class 165/166 would go to the Bristol area which in turn would have displaced other units to Devon and Cornwall.

 

[irish_rail]

Just guessing but 5 from PZ and 5+5 from PLy....??

But I'm sure I read somewhere that only the 9 car sets would have the correct facilities for pullman trains?!

 

[NSEFAN]

Some feedback on your points:

1) there may well be disruption of a 5 coach unit turns up rather than a 9/10 coach train but that is 5 more coaches than if there's a problem with a HST under the current situation.

2) there's enough capacity to have the flexibility to have all the services as full length which currently run. However there's more 80x services going to be running throughout the day. There's going to be 2tph through Cornwall (circa 30 trains a day) rather than 12. Even if all those be services are half length that's more coaches than at present.

3) the argument here is we'll run more shorter units with more coaches overall, as well as some (possibly nearly as many as there currently are) full length trains. With regards to extra units; there are going to be so many 80x's on the network that if demand picks up in the first four years (until the start of the next franchise) the current orders will have just finished being built and so a follow on order would be easy to do. Unlike the 22x's which were out of production and would have only been for (relatively) few units.

To give an idea of the size of the orders, if XC lengthened their for coach units to 5 coaches that would have been about 40 coaches. Get to same order size would require just 17% of the 5 coach GWR units to be lengthened to 9 coaches in length. However chances are there will be calls to lengthen the 9 coach units to 10 coaches for the Bristol services.

Add in, at about the same time, the need for new units for XC and/or EMT and that's going to keep the order books busy for another few years.

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if we saw 80x Compatible coaches being offered for the next 10 years as there will be over 1,200 confirmed coaches on the network. That compares with about 500 in the form of the 22x fleets. That means that orders to expand the fleets, if all else was equal, would be double.

That sounds like a better situation than that which faced XC. Provided there will be a realistic option to extend the trains if/when demand increases, then that's fine. Indeed, extending Cornwall services can be done on the back of other orders.

 

[DenmarkRail]

aren't the cooking facilities being removed on the IEP? Thus meaning no more pullman services?

 

[ainsworth74]

aren't the cooking facilities being removed on the IEP? Thus meaning no more pullman services?

No they will all have full kitchens. There will, however, be no buffet counters.

 

[DenmarkRail]

No they will all have full kitchens. There will, however, be no buffet counters.

Hmmm... Seems pointless. I'll miss the buffet to tell the truth.

 

[tbtc]

And do you not think that GWR, being the incumbent operator, is well aware of the times of the day and of the year when the trains are busiest? And will act accordingly. Never mind all the added capacity that will be provided by the extra services operating along the main line though Devon and Cornwall once the new timetable is in place

Yes, but it suits some people on here to believe that they are the first to have thought of various problems, and forget that this is GWR's bread-and-butter (and the TOC has several years of passenger data on which to base capacity).

Seems GWR will know the peaks and troughs of demand better than people whose main experience of Cornish lines is the busy school holiday period.

A couple of issues with those points:
1) It's still less capacity than a 9/10 car train, so when trains are cancelled in disruption you potentially have a trainload more people trying to fit into shorter trains

Well, yes, if a service is cancelled then it'll be a lot of disruption to squeeze inconvenienced passengers onto the subsequent service (which will already have its own services).

This is true of pretty much every line in the UK, so I don't see what the issue is in Cornwall - unless you are suggesting that every service should have twice as many seats as passengers just in case the train in front breaks down?

With regards to extra units; there are going to be so many 80x's on the network that if demand picks up in the first four years (until the start of the next franchise) the current orders will have just finished being built and so a follow on order would be easy to do. Unlike the 22x's which were out of production and would have only been for (relatively) few units.

True.

Voyagers and Meridians were relatively small relatively specialist fleets (so much so that you can't even inter-work them due to software), so once the production line closed, so did realistic hopes of additional trains.

80Xs are going to be getting built for some time to come (e.g. it looks like the MML will be getting some, which keeps the production line open even longer - and we can build them in Japan/ Italy/ County Durham, so it's not even like we are dependent upon one factory).

The only question with extensions is whether there's any point in something between five and nine coaches long - do you just extend everything to nine because a six/seven/eight coach 80x would be inefficient for capacity east of Reading?

No they will all have full kitchens. There will, however, be no buffet counters.

You've got this annoying habit of having actually read the specifications so that you can use facts to destroy the unsubstantiated froth about "Voyager-clones" from various posters on here

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

But I'm sure I read somewhere that only the 9 car sets would have the correct facilities for pullman trains?!

You read wrong. Both 5 and 9 car sets will have the full kitchen facilities, and both be capable of operating a Pullman dining service, the continued operation of which is a GWR commitment.

 

[ainsworth74]

You've got this annoying habit of having actually read the specifications so that you can use facts to destroy the unsubstantiated froth about "Voyager-clones" from various posters on here

Sorry! I'll give myself a stern talking to for daring to use facts in a discussion. I keep forgetting we're in a post fact world where feelings and froth are more important than facts and truth

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

You've got this annoying habit of having actually read the specifications so that you can use facts to destroy the unsubstantiated froth about "Voyager-clones" from various posters on here

Sorry! I'll give myself a stern talking to for daring to use facts in a discussion. I keep forgetting we're in a post fact world where feelings and froth are more important than facts and truth

It is a definite strength of this forum that there are members prepared to occasionally call out the frothers!

As for the Cornwall main line I wonder how busy the 5-car 80Xs will be outside the main summer season; I rather suspect that aside from certain local commuting flows they will be fairly quiet for much of the day. The reality of the publicly funded railway in this country is that we do not expect to fully cater for the highest peaks in demand and so passengers travelling at such times will sometimes have to stand. It's not ideal but it is what politicians have decided is acceptable in terms of funding. Another uncomfortable truth!

 

[YorkshireBear]

It is a definite strength of this forum that there are members prepared to occasionally call out the frothers!

As for the Cornwall main line I wonder how busy the 5-car 80Xs will be outside the main summer season; I rather suspect that aside from certain local commuting flows they will be fairly quiet for much of the day. The reality of the publicly funded railway in this country is that we do not expect to fully cater for the highest peaks in demand and so passengers travelling at such times will sometimes have to stand. It's not ideal but it is what politicians have decided is acceptable in terms of funding. Another uncomfortable truth!

Id be tempted to agree. And equally i would be surprised if GWR do not provide that summer capacity. But through the winter everyone here is well aware that a vast majority of the penzance services will do fine on a single 5 car IEP.

 

[83G/84D]

Reading back through where I originally read it, I did misinterpret it a bit. The first phase, between Truro and St Erth, includes 12 new signals and seven upgraded level crossings, in time for December 2018 which IIRC (not in the source) is when the half-hourly is proposed. Transfer of everything to the Thames Valley SC at Didcot is due by 2020.

No funding for phase 2 in CP6 I am told. When it does eventually happen is anyone's guess as is the location where Cornwall will be then signalled from.

Didcot by no means a certainty and other locations are possible.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

There are currently 464 Mark 3 coaches at GWR for use with their HST's.

It doesn't alter your (well made) central point, nor the numbers by much, but worth noting that the 80Xs are replacing 180s as well as HSTs.

 

[lejog]

Yes, but it suits some people on here to believe that they are the first to have thought of various problems, and forget that this is GWR's bread-and-butter (and the TOC has several years of passenger data on which to base capacity).

Seems GWR will know the peaks and troughs of demand better than people whose main experience of Cornish lines is the busy school holiday period

Those damn experts, people have had enough of what they say.

 

[83G/84D]

First two GWR HST sets go off lease on the 23rd of August.

 

[Master29]

Those damn experts, people have had enough of what they say.

Er just like Virgin did their homework with the voyager. Us plebs no nothing obviously.

However I`m more inclined to believe thought has gone into this project at least. I often travel on the 08:44 Cornish Riviera out of Cornwall and to be truthful it`s hardy ever full during most of the year. From July to September is a completely different matter.

Also, most afternoon trains out of Pad to Devon and Cornwall are usually rammed most of the year but slowly empty from Taunton to Plymouth.

I`m still inclined to believe that mainly the named trains into Devon and Cornwall will use the 9 car sets but let`s wait and see.

 

[D1009]

It is a definite strength of this forum that there are members prepared to occasionally call out the frothers!

As for the Cornwall main line I wonder how busy the 5-car 80Xs will be outside the main summer season; I rather suspect that aside from certain local commuting flows they will be fairly quiet for much of the day. The reality of the publicly funded railway in this country is that we do not expect to fully cater for the highest peaks in demand and so passengers travelling at such times will sometimes have to stand. It's not ideal but it is what politicians have decided is acceptable in terms of funding. Another uncomfortable truth!

There are certainly times outside the main summer season when Paddington to Penzance trains are busy. What few people really know is how many of the passengers west of Plymouth are actually through passengers to or from London, and how many use the HSTs because they are more comfortable than the 150s which work most of the other trains. 2 trains per hour west of Plymouth should certainly even things up. Today I travelled on the 1303 Penzance to Paddington, which is normally a very busy service with many reservations from Cornwall as there are big gaps in the London service both ahead of and behind it. Today it was less than half full when I was on it, so I can say from personal experience that loadings on trains on this route vary wildly, both at holiday and other times.

First two GWR HST sets go off lease on the 23rd of August.

Presumably that is how they have magicked up a set today to work on the Newquay branch for the Surf and Rock festival.

 

[43096]

First two GWR HST sets go off lease on the 23rd of August.

How does that work when the first IEPs aren't in traffic until (I think) October time?

 

[broadgage]

You read wrong. Both 5 and 9 car sets will have the full kitchen facilities, and both be capable of operating a Pullman dining service, the continued operation of which is a GWR commitment.

I doubt that a Pullman service would be possible on a 5 car DMU. Although the kitchens are similar, where are these dining customers to sit ? first class has been downgraded to only 35 seats on the 5 car units. It is bad enough on the downgraded HSTs that have only one and half first class coaches.

 

[co-tr-paul]

First I've heard of sets going off lease. Defiantly too early...??

 

[Taunton]

Back in the "good old days" of loco haulage, Paddington to Penzance services generally detached half their carriages at Plymouth. This matched the loadings well, half the passengers would have got out at Taunton, Exeter or Plymouth, far more than joined.

Always seemed to me that the two 5-car units of the new trains, one only running to the major intermediate point, are an efficient manner of running things. The same applies beyond Cardiff on the South Wales line, and to be honest beyond even Oxford on the Hereford line. Sure there may be the odd busier service at the extremities, but generally this is how loadings go.

The only real issue is expecting Cornwall passengers to get up to the front unit when Paddington puts the platform up on the board, as so often nowadays, at just 2 minutes before departure.

Is there any catering beyond Plymouth nowadays? The refreshment vehicles were also always detached at Plymouth.

 

[iantherev]

Yes - there is catering beyond Plymouth - even extending to the loco hauled SO Service.