Fen Line - Not a good week so far

[fsmr]

well i have to say that we always used to phone to get permission before taking a vehicle over the melton leics line in the 80s at Brooksby occupation crossing oj the farm and i still phone now to go over at manton, Rutland bridleway crossing with the dogs and bikes. No brainer not to. better late in this life than early in the next.
Lack of language skills (if that was the case and who knows at this point) is not an excuse and is the employers responsibility to ensure it is understood and enforced as part fo safe working. Farming is no different to any other industry

 

[Aictos]

Well it's already been said it's going to take 5 days by rail to get it to Hornsey as only it can only be coupled up at the Kings Lynn end to a loco or another EMU but there's also talk of it being moved by road

The only reason why the train did not derail and fell on it's side was because one of the small wheels from the tractor got wedged near the bogies and that I'm told helped to keep the train upright.

Either way, it's going to cost the farmer's insurance in the region of £million pounds - The farmer is very lucky not to have lost his legs as another few inches onto the crossing, he would have lost them.

The driver I was told made a emergency announcement getting everyone in the front coach to head towards the rear of the train before applying the emergency brake, thankfully their only injury was that of bruised ribs but it could have been a lot worse.

 

[fsmr]

Well it's already been said it's going to take 5 days by rail to get it to Hornsey as only it can only be coupled up at the Kings Lynn end to a loco or another EMU but there's also talk of it being moved by road

The only reason why the train did not derail and fell on it's side was because one of the small wheels from the tractor got wedged near the bogies and that I'm told helped to keep the train upright.

Either way, it's going to cost the farmer's insurance in the region of £million pounds - The farmer is very lucky not to have lost his legs as another few inches onto the crossing, he would have lost them.

The driver I was told made a emergency announcement getting everyone in the front coach to head towards the rear of the train before applying the emergency brake, thankfully their only injury was that of bruised ribs but it could have been a lot worse.

In how many accidents has the driver been able to give some warning to pax.
Opportunity here for some kind of pre recorded quick response message on the PA activated by the driver and / or emergency brake application. Glad no one was seriously injured

 

[317666]

Another bad morning for the Fen line after some disruption in the Ely area for a few hours caused some delays this morning. I've heard the cause as being a lorry going through the crossing barriers at Ely.

 

[Aictos]

Another bad morning for the Fen line after some disruption in the Ely area for a few hours caused some delays this morning. I've heard the cause as being a lorry going through the crossing barriers at Ely.

Yep however most of the delays caused by the knock on effect wasn't because of the lorry but down to another TOC's service being slower then expected getting in touch with the signaller.

 

[NightatLaira]

The driver I was told made a emergency announcement getting everyone in the front coach to head towards the rear of the train before applying the emergency brake, thankfully their only injury was that of bruised ribs but it could have been a lot worse.

What a brave action - hats off to that man.

What exactly happens in an emergency stop and how dies it differ from other stops? I've been in an instance where a train overshot Stevenage platform by about 1 mile, it basically put the brakes on as it was going through the station at about 80mph; the deceleration was very rapid! But was this an emergency stop? Or is that even more severe?

 

[Aictos]

What a brave action - hats off to that man.

What exactly happens in an emergency stop and how dies it differ from other stops? I've been in an instance where a train overshot Stevenage platform by about 1 mile, it basically put the brakes on as it was going through the station at about 80mph; the deceleration was very rapid! But was this an emergency stop? Or is that even more severe?

He was braver then that - He was back at work the following day!

Regarding a emergency stop, you will soon know what a emergency brake application is by the rapid deceleration of the train.

 

[NightatLaira]

Does it damage the engine, brakes, wheels? On an EMU does the motor go into reverse? Do emergency stops have ABS? I.e. anti-lock? Is this how 'flatted wheels' happen?

And when we talk about rapid deceleration are we talking about cups of coffee sliding off tables, bags sliding along luggage racks, etc?

 

[jon0844]

Opportunity here for some kind of pre recorded quick response message on the PA activated by the driver and / or emergency brake application. Glad no one was seriously injured

The 378s* have pre-recorded emergency messages, as played when a train went mad (CIS demo mode?) and was caught on tape (YouTube) but I think they're relating to evacuations only. Certainly nothing to give any detailed instructions.

You'd also need the driver to find the code, which would take far longer in reality unless you considered a collision announcement to be worthy of a dedicated button.

But, like Richard Branson said (even if it sounded silly in relation to steering the train), the driver is a hero by proving exactly why they deserve the salaries they do - by putting themselves in danger and seeking to protect the passengers 'on their watch'.

* Presumably any other new Bombardier train would too.

 

[IanXC]

This is the problem.

If you slow trains such that they can easily stop if some idiot crosses, imagine the delays and impact on timetables. Also, if locals realise trains will go at 5mph through a crossing, they'll happily chance their luck as they've got no real risk.

But, how do you deal with people that jump lights or cross on farmland because they think they know the timings so well a train couldn't be approaching? Was this train on time, early or late I wonder?

Do you close these crossings for farmers, or build bridges for them? Seriously, how do you cope with idiots like this?

Not sure how the legal aspects of this work, but I think if a certain level of accidents/misuse was recorded at a certain user worked crossing (in place for a single user eg farm or company or home) then either the user would have to pay for conversion to AHB or have the crossing route closed.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There is an image of 365532 on the FCC website, not pretty.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/announcement/

Anyone know where this picture can now be seen as its been replaced on the FCC site with another story now

 

[Aictos]

Anyone know where this picture can now be seen as its been replaced on the FCC site with another story now

Try Rail News, they have the photo on their article, click here

 

[IanXC]

Try Rail News, they have the photo on their article, click here

Thanks

What happened to the unit at Littleport? Is it still out of service? Without knowing what facilities are in each part or which ends of the 2 units are involved could a temporary set be created while the repairs are undertaken?

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure how the legal aspects of this work, but I think if a certain level of accidents/misuse was recorded at a certain user worked crossing (in place for a single user eg farm or company or home) then either the user would have to pay for conversion to AHB or have the crossing route closed.

Two problems there:

1) rarely do the agrements with the users have clauses that permit this sort of thing. Simplifying matters greatly, the land owner, or more specifically their predecessor, were usually there before the railway, so the railway has to pay.

2) The installation of new AHB crossings are, unoffcially, banned. It's full barriers or nowt.

 

[Aictos]

Thanks

What happened to the unit at Littleport? Is it still out of service? Without knowing what facilities are in each part or which ends of the 2 units are involved could a temporary set be created while the repairs are undertaken?

As far as I am aware both 365s involved in recent accidents on the Fen line are both out of use until further notice - I don't know what replacing them if anything or when they will be back, I do know both will have to go to the works to be repaired especially the Kings Lynn one as it needs a new cab.

 

[Barrett M95]

Does it damage the engine, brakes, wheels? On an EMU does the motor go into reverse? Do emergency stops have ABS? I.e. anti-lock? Is this how 'flatted wheels' happen?

And when we talk about rapid deceleration are we talking about cups of coffee sliding off tables, bags sliding along luggage racks, etc?

In a nutshell (using my own TGV experience - but the same applies to UK modern electric stock), an emergency brake application is likely to have similar brake force to a full service application - an emergency brake application is often likened to "putting a hole in the brake pipe" - i.e. dropping the pressure immediately and to keep it dropping as fast as possible.

The key differences are that there is no self-lapping or blending of the brake systems in emergency mode. That is if the set has rheo/regen braking (in effect this is the reversing of the motors as you describe, although the physical rotation of the motors is not reversed, the current supplied to them is reversed and used to create a retardation torque instead of a propulstion torque), in a service brake mode, this is seamlessly blended with the EP/PBL brake when lower speeds are reached, and the driver will release the braking effort to smoothly slow down. In emergency braking the train will apply full rheo/regen and full EP/PBL braking (plus the powercar or loco straight brake too) all at the same time and no further action is required of the driver (if it had an anchor, it would chuck it out the window too... and deploy the parachute...) - it will keep it at maximum effort until the train stops. The initial application of all these systems at once will give a very notable retardation force from the passengers point of view - it will not be smooth. You may also hear the WSP fighting with the friction available at the wheel/rail interface continually whereas with a driver controlled deceleration this would normally ease quite quickly.

The easiest way to tell between a full service application and emergency stop is that at the very end of motion a service brake will still have a smooth stop whereas an emergency stop will have a "jerky" stop and that pungent odour of brake pads.

"Anti-lock" on rolling stock is called WSP - Wheel slide prevention/protection. The same system (or parts thereof) and sensors prevent wheel slip under traction (traction control on cars). if this doesn't function properly or is disabled, then yes this is when wheel flats can occur.

Does that help?

 

[OxtedL]

An amazing and informative post.

Just out of mild interest, would a parachute (à la Space Shuttle ) have a noticeable effect on train retardation?

 

[Bald Rick]

An amazing and informative post.

Just out of mild interest, would a parachute (à la Space Shuttle ) have a noticeable effect on train retardation?

Certainly on lines with 25kv, it would make for an electrifying braking performance, no doubt many passengers' hair would stand on end.

 

[IanXC]

Two problems there:

1) rarely do the agrements with the users have clauses that permit this sort of thing. Simplifying matters greatly, the land owner, or more specifically their predecessor, were usually there before the railway, so the railway has to pay.

2) The installation of new AHB crossings are, unoffcially, banned. It's full barriers or nowt.

A nice piece of new primary legislation could solve the first issue.

I can't see why upgrading crossings from user worked to AHB would be a problem. Yes you wouldnt want to effectively downgrade a crossing, or create one where there previously wasnt one but this would seem to be a good solution given the repeated findings of RAIB surrounding "driver confusion" and comprehension issues.

As far as I am aware both 365s involved in recent accidents on the Fen line are both out of use until further notice - I don't know what replacing them if anything or when they will be back, I do know both will have to go to the works to be repaired especially the Kings Lynn one as it needs a new cab.

I would have thought the rear (in their accidents) halves of the 2 sets would be in good order? Surely they could be put together to form a set while repairs are undertaken.

 

[jon0844]

Why can't you just out bollards in the road to make it near impossible to go on the wrong side of the road to go through the barrier - but still be able to exit if you're already on the crossing?

Not absolutely perfect, but someone intent on chancing their luck isn't surely going to drive on the wrong side of the road for some distance, with no way to get back in.

 

[Crossover]

Why can't you just out bollards in the road to make it near impossible to go on the wrong side of the road to go through the barrier - but still be able to exit if you're already on the crossing?

Not absolutely perfect, but someone intent on chancing their luck isn't surely going to drive on the wrong side of the road for some distance, with no way to get back in.

Wide loads probably is pprobably part of the reasoning behind it.
That and cost of installation and inevitably repairing them when some tool flattens them
(round here our local Co-op has a separate delivery extrance, which was originally just edged with a breeze block wall...lorries knocked that down a number of times so they put in a metal tube filled with concrete...this has also been knocked out a few times too...probably the foundations though...still, it'd be difficult to get something that didn't get flattened a number of times!)

===============================================

As for the EBA - it has been explained well about it. As a real life example though I was on a 142 that had an EBA the other week...from quite high speed hock:
We just noticed the braking was quite heavy, though nothing particularly out of the ordinary at the time. It was when it stopped and the whole thing lurched forwards, then back and bounced a lot!!!

I'd say the worst case with an EBA is that you can potentially cook the brakes (see the Youtube video of the Virgin Voyager at Northallerton) if stopping from 125mph or have a lock up and knacker up the wheels.

 

[jopsuk]

Why can't you just out bollards in the road to make it near impossible to go on the wrong side of the road to go through the barrier - but still be able to exit if you're already on the crossing?

Not absolutely perfect, but someone intent on chancing their luck isn't surely going to drive on the wrong side of the road for some distance, with no way to get back in.

Is this the sort of thing you're thinking about?

 

[Tomnick]

I can't see why upgrading crossings from user worked to AHB would be a problem. Yes you wouldnt want to effectively downgrade a crossing, or create one where there previously wasnt one but this would seem to be a good solution given the repeated findings of RAIB surrounding "driver confusion" and comprehension issues.

There's quite heavy restrictions on where you can install an AHB crossing, some of which relate to the width and layout of the approach road on either side. Your average farm track wouldn't come anywhere near the required standard, so there's a huge lump of work to get that right for a start, before you even think about the design of the crossing itself, in particularly any implications it might have on the existing signalling.

 

[HSTEd]

Only time Ive witnessed an EBA was on a TPE 185 when the driver fouled the platform TPWS loop at Leeds, we were all standing up to disembark and we all stumbled forward a few steps, train ended up at the very end of the platform.

 

[jon0844]

Is this the sort of thing you're thinking about?

Yes, although over here, you'd probably need to start the bollards (or island as shown there) a bit further back!

I can actually picture us having people who would just drive over an island.

 

[The Sleeper]

It states that the fire brigade had to verify all power had been earthed, would that mean there is still power in the lines whilst off, until it gets earthed

Even when all the OHE has been isolated, there will remain residual current in the wire which can be dangerous.

 

[jopsuk]

Yes, although over here, you'd probably need to start the bollards (or island as shown there) a bit further back!

I can actually picture us having people who would just drive over an island.

being a single track, "snaking" between the islands would be quite difficult/slow.

For a double track, you might have to "bulge" the tracks out a little and add a further island/bollard in a widened "6 foot"

 

[HSTEd]

Shouldnt these systems be fitted with a contactor that would automatically ground the lines immediately on the breakers being tripped? Presumabely by shorting the lines to the running rail beneath them.

 

[365201]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FgPqUhTUBg


And here is 365532, My video of the unit being craned away is coming soon,

 

[Intercity]

is that the set in the siding at downham market? first time i've seen a set in that bay so it would make sense

 

[365201]

Yep! after passenger traffic ends, all carriages will be uncoupled and the job lot will be spirited away, First are going to give me a call when the date and time for its removal is confirmed so i can video the whole process