Female Only Carriages

[cle]

As mentioned above, safe carriages are a good idea.

If the train is packed, fine. If not, people should be encouraged to travel in the same carriage. The NYC subway has signs on each platform to denote these night-safe areas.

 

[NSEFAN]

I believe that in the days of fully compartment stock like the 4-SUB units, there was a period when the very last and first compartments were women only. I was once talking to an enthusiast who had used said compartment by accident; he said he'd never got so many evil looks in his entire life!

As for the situation nowadays, I will echo the concerns of others that a women-only carriage would only make the problem worse; it'd be a prime target for attackers. A better deterrent would be CCTV everywhere and harsher penalties on the offenders.

 

[dysonsphere]

Well several people have gone around the issue but it would be completly unlawfull to have discrimation in this way. The attack is very uinfortunate but would probably have happened anyway, as was pointed out the attacker would know which carraige to target. I seem to recall this was a big problem with non corridor stock.

 

[Ferret]

NSEFAN, what are you talking about?! Harsh penalties for offenders? Did you forget we're discussing Britain here or something? Give them a slap on the wrist and tell them not to do it again will be far more likely.....

 

[CC 72100]

To be honest I don't think you can. There's also been men who've been attacked by groups of drunks on trains. On the same basis you'd have to provide a sober males only carriage, otherwise you'd be breaching the equalities act.

If anything a female only carriage may makes things worse on some services. The attackers know exactly where to go to target females and there isn't the chance of a decent amateur rugby player sitting behind them who can help the female out if she was being attacked.

I totally agree with this. I think 90% of the train would tempted by a carriage free of drunken idiots late at night, a fair quantity of them males themselves!

Although for a different reason (late night muggings etc.), on the RER D in Paris (think Thameslink/Metropolitan Line LUL), they have carriages in the centre of the sets (coaches 5 and 6 when 2x5 car rakes) which they market as a place for anyone worried about security etc. to travel together... safety in numbers and all that.

@ OP: Sorry to hear of what's happened. As others have said, I hope the culprits are found and the maximum punishment given to them, and I hope your daughter recovers for this awful incident.

 

[yorksrob]

They'd at least know the situation that you were in and could either help, get help or just show their face at the next station. Realistically there isn't much the Guard can do either, but it takes away the assailants advantage of having you isolated. A lot of people like this shy away from robbing/assaulting people where there are other members of the public or people of authority (i.e. rail staff) about. It's all about making yourself less of an appealing target.

Fair point. I guess I was thinking along the lines that the guard might at least walk past a few times, whereas the driver would be fully engaged driving the train.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Much like the New York Subway has an off hours waiting area near athe manned token booth and advises passengers in the quiet hours to travel in the centre of the train where the conductor is ! (apart from the L line which is DOO) - this has been around for many years and seems to work quite well.

BR had to get rid of "ladies only" compartments due to equality legislation. I advise my wife and others to travel in the front car next to the driver on very late FCC services - to be fair late evening trains out of London - even all stations - are pretty busy.

 

[BestWestern]

They have female only coaches in Japan, but they're only in operation during peak hours. While I dont think it would work at those times over here, there could be a potential for something similar.

No, there really couldn't!

I sympathise with the OP and the appalling experience suffered by his daughter, but the suggestion of segregation is horrifically sexist and totally inappropriate in the modern world. The idea that men are somehow universally dangerous and women need constant protection is already in circulation among certain fanatical groups, and we don't need to fuel it any further! You could equally suggest that passengers of a certain religious faith should be required to sit in a particular coach in case they are carrying explosives. Of course, for some reason people might feel uncomfortable suggesting that taboo, but strangely not others...

I agree with other posters that what is needed is a better staff presence on board.

 

[GatwickDepress]

Would a requirement for the guard to have a presence on late-night services by keeping his office door open or something, with regular announcements for passengers concerned about safety to travel in the rear coach be feasible?

Perhaps late-night DOO services with frequent levels of criminal behaviour could have a BTP PCSO or two on-board, with regular announcements to that effect.

The cost for hiring additional staff for both of those suggestions would likely be very high however, and whether it would be an effective deterrent or not...

 

[telstarbox]

I am very sorry to hear what happened to your daughter and I hope she recovers soon.

Following the standard advice (don't sit alone, stick to well-lit areas, carry a personal alarm) can reduce the risk to one's safety but unfortunately the possibility of things like this happening can never be eliminated.

The vast majority of men (or women) would never consider harming another person in this way.

 

[43021HST]

Is anyone thinking practically here?

A female only compartment is a bad idea, not only would it reduce passenger capacity, but it would make stock deployment more difficult for the operators.
Also these compartments are just another complexity for the average passenger to think of, and an extra thing to police.

The only way to minimise the chances of rape on trains, as others have said would be to staff late evening and night trains with BTP officers.

 

[Holly]

It won't happen because it's sexist.
EU laws won't allow it, I should think our own laws wouldn't. ...

Equalities Act 2010
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

 

[swj99]

This discussion reminds me of something that happened on a train when my mum and dad were on a long train journey about 11 years ago. I don't remember where they were going, or coming back from. A group of 3 drunken lads were harassing a lone young woman, and ignoring her requests to be left alone. The train wasn't particularly crowded but the lads insisted on sitting right up close, next to the woman, making sexually suggestive remarks.
In the end, my dad could see by the look on her face that she really wasn't happy about this so he told them to leave her alone, but they told him to f*** off. He went and reported them to the guard, then returned to his seat. The guard arrived and asked the lads to leave the woman alone, and they did, for a while, until she left. Then they started off again, this time actually touching the woman inappropriately. There were other passengers within sight and earshot, but no-one else did anything about it. My dad stood up and told them to leave her alone, but again was told to f*** off. He approached the one who'd said it, and quietly told him what would happen if they didn't leave her alone. They got off at the next stop shortly after and one of them apologised on his way past.

Dad didn't tell me exactly what he'd said to them, and I told him off when I found out about it. I know it was very public spirited of him and a decent thing to do, but he was already 71 by then, and if he'd got it wrong, he would probably have got seriously hurt or killed. His reply was that he'd already decided exactly what he was going to do if anything kicked off, and to whom, before he went over there, and that he wasn't worried. I think I was probably more worried when I heard about it than he was when he was there.

Legalising PPE, such as CS spray, weapons of self defence etc isn't going to happen in this country anytime soon, because there are too many irresponsible people and nutters, and it would just get misused. But I think what would probably be a good deterrent is to have cctv all over the place. It's not expensive nowadays. Now that you can even get a high quality car camcorder off ebay for less than £20, there's really no excuse not to have cctv in places where it could save lives.
People soon get the idea of what they can and can't get away with, based on whether they're likely to get caught or not. Think of all the rioters who probably won't do it again, now that they know how easy it is to identify them on the video footage.

 

[pinguini]

The Dubai metro has a women only part of a carriage. Different culture to ours of course!

Dubai has women only everything. And yes, I've seen men walk through the womens only carriage when they realise they accidently got into the gold class carriage and have to walk through it to get to silver.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I don't think segregated compartments would neccesarily fall foul of equality legislation, but as others have pointed out it would be difficult to introduce and enforce. Fundamentally, the problem really is that a significant minority of men (of all ages) think that behaviour like this is acceptable and normal. We all sat through Sex Education at school but at no point was the issue of consent, respect for others, etc discussed. My parents brought me up in the right way, and I'd like to think most parents did the same- but there are many men out there who think it's 'okay' to behave like a predator simply because that girl happens to be wearing a short skirt, or is a little bit drunk, or indeed none of the above. Harsher penalties for such things would be welcome, but would only be the 'ambulance at the bottom of the cliff', as would segregated carriages. Until we educate young boys to respect others first and foremost (rather than demanding "respec'":roll:!) then crimes like sexual assaults will continue along with the alarmingly low detection/conviction rate.

My best wishes to the OP and his daughter.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Many thanks to all those who taken the time to reply to this thread.

In hindsight, I agree that a single sex carriage would be very hard to enforce and that a safe coach is a much more workable idea, especially as it would encourage passengers to congregate in that carriage. Safety in numbers goes along way and the watchful eye of the guard would certainly be a deterrent. This of course is of no use if trains are DOO. The train that our daughter travelled on did have a guard but he had no way of realising what was happening as he was at the opposite end of the train to her.

I do think it's rather unfair to suggest that introducing special measures for lone female travelers discriminates against others. Sexual assault or, worse rape is a terrifying experience for which many never properly recover. I've been robbed late at night and whilst it's not a pleasant experience in no way does it compare to what my daughter and others have suffered.

Thanks again,

Richmond Commuter.

 

[Muzer]

I do definitely agree with the idea of safe carriages - it's less discriminatory, less patronising, and more general (and will probably also work better) than the female-only carriages (which won't protect against a woman assaulting another woman, or women/other men assaulting men for that matter). It's getting the staffing that's probably the issue. I don't know if there are some particular services/lines with higher risks than others, but if so, I certainly think such a scheme could pay off on these at the least.

 

[Goatboy]

G'day,

My 18 year old daughter was recently the victim of a sexual assault whilst travelling home late one Friday night. The help that she has received from both TfL and the BTP has been first class and and our daughter is now starting to get her confidence back. However, I do wonder whether the introduction of female only carriages on certain trains late at night might help to prevent further attacks from taking place.

Your thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Many thanks,

Richmond Commuter

My thoughts are that whilst I am horrified to hear of what happened to your daughter and hope the BTP manage to get the people responsible, your suggestion is absolutely not something which should happen.

Do you honestly think the sort of person for whom the law against sexual assault is no barrier to his actions would care for one minute about a 'Women only' coach? If anything it would make the occupants even more vulnerable as there would be far less chance of there being a nearby male to ward off any would-be attackers.

 

[JGR]

Do you honestly think the sort of person for whom the law against sexual assault is no barrier to his actions would care for one minute about a 'Women only' coach? If anything it would make the occupants even more vulnerable as there would be far less chance of there being a nearby male to ward off any would-be attackers.

Whilst I largely agree with your conclusion, I think that the attitude that women are inherently defenceless and need "a nearby male to ward off any would-be attackers" is as much part of a problem as the predatory males themselves.

 

[michael769]

I do think it's rather unfair to suggest that introducing special measures for lone female travelers discriminates against others. Sexual assault or, worse rape is a terrifying experience for which many never properly recover. I've been robbed late at night and whilst it's not a pleasant experience in any way does it compare to what my daughter and others have suffered.

While I have no wish to minimise what was an awful and vile attack, the simple reality is that many many more young men are attacked, seriously injured, killed and even yes raped, than are women, and a lone man is far more likely to be a victim than a lone women.

Are men less deserving of societies protection? Do the relatives and friends of young men deserve less support than those of women? How can we justify protection a segment of society who are (as demonstrated by Home Office evidence) less vulnerable than those who are not protected.

The only effective way to protect both men and women on public transport is better policing and security. To be blunt the type of person willing to perpretrate such attacks is not going to comply witth a sign saying "women only" so women only carriages would need some form of supervision to ensure compliance. But that same level of superision would on it's own prevent incidents like this - against both men and women.

Would it not be better to direct campaigning efforts to providing adequate protection for all of us, than to provide an inadequate and unenforced veneer of safety for a half of us!

Being willing to pay sufficient extra taxes to fund adequate numbers of police officers would be a good start!

 

[Bevan Price]

I believe that in the days of fully compartment stock like the 4-SUB units, there was a period when the very last and first compartments were women only. I was once talking to an enthusiast who had used said compartment by accident; he said he'd never got so many evil looks in his entire life!

As for the situation nowadays, I will echo the concerns of others that a women-only carriage would only make the problem worse; it'd be a prime target for attackers. A better deterrent would be CCTV everywhere and harsher penalties on the offenders.

There were also "ladies only" compartments in some loco-hauled non corridor stock. Apart from any discrimination issues, "ladies only" became impracticable / unworkable when compartment / non-corridor stock was eliminated, and, more importantly, when many trains outside the London area were reduced to 2 coach dmus.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

A better deterrent would be CCTV everywhere and harsher penalties on the offenders.

CCTV is not a deterrent. We have CCTV everywhere and crime is still more prevelant than ever (if not more so as many of the petty acts of criminal damage and vandalsim go unrecorded). All CCTV does is help catch some offenders afterwards. A physical presence is the only deterrent more likely to prevent offences occuring in the first place.

 

[brianthegiant]

Mutant Lemming makes a good point.
I think the notion that CCTV = personal security propagated by numerous public service companies is potentially misleading.
Is cctv on trains actually watched by anyone in real-time? If it is, how long does it take a cctv operator to decide something untoward is taking place on one of numerous cameras they're watching and relay that information to BTP control room who then despatch BTP to the next station... (if that is feasible)....

It seems to me that personal security on late night trains would be a very strong argument for reintroducing windows in the partition between cab and passenger compartment. I believe where they're used on ICEs there is an automatic blind which closes at specific decision making events (approaching certain signals?) for the forward cab.

Some may argue it is too distracting for drivers if there is drunkeness etc, but even if only the blind on the rear cab where the train manager sits were kept open it would be an improvement.

I don't fully buy the 'what can a train manager do' argument, ok if the situation is violent that may be true, but not all incidents which make people feel vulnerable are violent, may just be verbal abuse. I understand that people who expose themselves for example are generally not the same people who carry out violent assaults.

 

[Gareth]

CCTV is not a deterrent. We have CCTV everywhere and crime is still more prevelant than ever

Hasn't violent crime actually been going down in modern times? I'm sure it was worse, say, 30 years ago and certainly in Victorian times. How much CCTV has to do with it, I'm not sure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Equalities Act 2010
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

Doesn't seem to stop Liverpool City Council from having lots of women only programmes and events in regards to leisure centres and night classes. No men only ones though. :roll:

 

[Flamingo]

CCTV is no real deterrent unless in an envoirnment where real-time observation of it occurs, or somebody obscuring their features would instantly raise suspicision. My in-laws retirement complex had several burglaries, and the police crime prevention said that for distraction burglaries (I'm from the GasBoard') it was a deterrent, as they couldn't get away with that if wearing a hoodie, but little scrotes breaking a window, proving who was under the hoodie in court was impossible.

 

[RichmondCommu]

While I have no wish to minimise what was an awful and vile attack, the simple reality is that many many more young men are attacked, seriously injured, killed and even yes raped, than are women, and a lone man is far more likely to be a victim than a lone women.

Are men less deserving of societies protection? Do the relatives and friends of young men deserve less support than those of women? How can we justify protection a segment of society who are (as demonstrated by Home Office evidence) less vulnerable than those who are not protected.

The only effective way to protect both men and women on public transport is better policing and security. To be blunt the type of person willing to perpretrate such attacks is not going to comply witth a sign saying "women only" so women only carriages would need some form of supervision to ensure compliance. But that same level of superision would on it's own prevent incidents like this - against both men and women.

Would it not be better to direct campaigning efforts to providing adequate protection for all of us, than to provide an inadequate and unenforced veneer of safety for a half of us!

Being willing to pay sufficient extra taxes to fund adequate numbers of police officers would be a good start!

Pease refer to post number 46 where I have agreed with others that a more workable solution would be to introduce a 'safe carriage' for trains running late at night.

Not only that but with regard to crimes committed on public transport, with the exception of murder nothing comes close to the psychological trauma of being sexually assaulted or worse still, being raped. And I'm sorry to say that many of theses crimes go unreported. And a female travelling alone will always feel more vulnerable to attack than a male. Many years’s a go I was robbed after being threatened with a weapon and whilst it was not a pleasant experience, compared to sexual assault it was nothing.

 

[jon0844]

But men can be sexually assaulted, and indeed are. I suspect many don't report in comparison to a female as they are probably far too ashamed to ever admit it.

 

[185]

In Sydney, Australia, stations have Night Safe Zones clearly painted on the platform - these line up with the carriage which the guard is in.

The painted areas also have enhanced lighting, live CCTV monitoring tied to both the station and their control... a help point is also in the centre of the zone.

Their country having no stupid licensing/data rules about who can monitor CCTV means the control and, more usefully, station staff can keep an eye on the cameras.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But men can be sexually assaulted, and indeed are. I suspect many don't report in comparison to a female as they are probably far too ashamed to ever admit it.

Oh absolutely and I would agree that this is a real tragedy. Against the number of assaults against women the numbers are much lower but just as devasating to the victim. However research shows that these are far less likely to occour on trains which was my original point.

As before, safe carriages would go a long way to reducing violent crime on our railways. Let's hope that TOC's start considering their introduction.

 

[jon0844]

I've seen the safe zones in Australia and having safe areas on platforms is a good idea, although with trains stopping in different places that could cause some issues of their own.

I think that the safest bet on the train is to be near the guard, or behind the driver on a DOO train - and to not be afraid to scream or run to the cab door and call for help.

Realistically, DOO trains won't get permanent security cover, which seems to be quite random on the trains I've been on. I suppose one possible solution for a TOC that doesn't have the resources to staff every train with security is to perhaps have dedicated safe trains, perhaps 1tph even if there's normally 2tph at night (or whatever), but that does of course mean people having to potentially wait longer to travel.