Female Only Carriages

[RichmondCommu]

G'day,

My 18 year old daughter was recently the victim of a sexual assault whilst travelling home late one Friday night. The help that she has received from both TfL and the BTP has been first class and and our daughter is now starting to get her confidence back. However, I do wonder whether the introduction of female only carriages on certain trains late at night might help to prevent further attacks from taking place.

Your thoughts on this would be most welcome.

Many thanks,

Richmond Commuter

 

[Tim R-T-C]

A horrible situation. Unfortunately I don't think such a solution would work as it would require ideally police to enforce and of course if they were present on a train then incidents like this could hopefully be prevented anyway.

 

[Scotty]

How do you decide which services?

 

[RichmondCommu]

A horrible situation. Unfortunately I don't think such a solution would work as it would require ideally police to enforce and of course if they were present on a train then incidents like this could hopefully be prevented anyway.

Oh I agree that it would need to be inforced but at least it would be a move in the right direction.
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How do you decide which services?

Well you have to ensure that there are enough available carriages for other passengers so that would automatically rule some services out along with trains that are DOO. It would then be down to the discretion of the police / TOC.

 

[northwichcat]

To be honest I don't think you can. There's also been men who've been attacked by groups of drunks on trains. On the same basis you'd have to provide a sober males only carriage, otherwise you'd be breaching the equalities act.

If anything a female only carriage may makes things worse on some services. The attackers know exactly where to go to target females and there isn't the chance of a decent amateur rugby player sitting behind them who can help the female out if she was being attacked.

 

[Deerfold]

Oh I agree that it would need to be inforced but at least it would be a move in the right direction.

I'm sorry this has happened, but think that with a police prescence nearby the incident probably wouldn't have happened (or the perpetrator caught pretty much immediately). Without that, I'm not sure how long they'd stay female only - and I know on the last train on my local line on a Friday or Saturday night in December it can be pretty much full and standing on a six carriage train - I can see others than those wanting to assault going into (potentially) the only carriage with room in it even if it said "no males" on the door/window.

 

[D841 Roebuck]

If No Smoking signs are ignored by those determined to smoke, then No Males signs would also be ignored by those determined to molest/annoy/assault women.


Might be better just to police late trains in a more high profile manner.

 

[Geezertronic]

Whilst it is a horrible situation, such an introduction would not have prevented what occurred.

 

[Ferret]

Whilst it is a horrible situation, such an introduction would not have prevented what occurred.

Alas, no it wouldn't. All I can recommend is that people try not to isolate themselves so that if anything does happen, there'll at least be a witness, if not somebody being prepared to step in.

All we can hope is that the assailant here is caught and prosecuted. Vile scum.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Without that, I'm not sure how long they'd stay female only - and I know on the last train on my local line on a Friday or Saturday night in December it can be pretty much full and standing on a six carriage train - I can see others than those wanting to assault going into (potentially) the only carriage with room in it even if it said "no males" on the door/window.

The thing is if the train my daughter had travelled on had been packed the chances of her being attacked would have been greatly reduced. The fact that there were only few people on the train meant that the perpetrator saw an opportunity.

 

[Flamingo]

Sorry to hear this, and I hope she recovers soon. Out of curiosity, was it a DOO train or was there any on-board staff presence? That might be more of a help than attempting to segregate a carriage, which under the current system would probably be unworkable.

 

[whhistle]

It won't happen because it's sexist.
EU laws won't allow it, I should think our own laws wouldn't.

Would the UK allow "male only" coaches? Sorry for your daughter.

 

[JamesRowden]

Alas, no it wouldn't. All I can recommend is that people try not to isolate themselves so that if anything does happen, there'll at least be a witness, if not somebody being prepared to step in.

All we can hope is that the assailant here is caught and prosecuted. Vile scum.

Modern trains have CCTV. If the train in question did have CCTV then it should be very useful for catching the criminal and perhaps it should be made clearer to such people that the train has CCTV. If the train did not have CCTV then adding it and advertising the fact should be as effective as the split genders seating proposed in this thread if the potential criminal has some sense. If someone boarded a train with some sort of mask that might make them unidentifiable (e.g. balaclava, Crash helmet) then that could be seen as suspicous in itself and so perhaps British Transport Police could be called to question the individual at the next station that they are based at.

 

[Ferret]

Modern trains have CCTV. If the train in question did have CCTV then it should be very useful for catching the criminal and perhaps it should be made clearer to such people that the train has CCTV. If the train did not have CCTV then adding it and advertising the fact should be as effective as the split genders seating proposed in this thread if the potential criminal has some sense. If someone boarded a train with some sort of mask that might make them unidentifiable (e.g. balaclava, Crash helmet) then that could be seen as suspicous in itself and so perhaps British Transport Police could be called to question the individual at the next station that they are based at.

The modern train I'm currently working does not have CCTV inside the carriage. Should be a pre-requisite in franchise agreements as far as I'm concerned, for the benefit of both staff and passengers alike.

 

[northwichcat]

It won't happen because it's sexist.
EU laws won't allow it, I should think our own laws wouldn't.

Would the UK allow "male only" coaches? Sorry for your daughter.

I already brought that up in post 5.

You'd have to have a very good reason for having female only carriages and not male only carriages without breaking the law. For instance, if there were virtually no serious assaults recorded against male passengers and a considerable number against female passengers and the ones against females were mainly by male passengers then you probably could state a claim for female only carriages and not male only carriages and still comply with the law.

 

[317666]

I'm sorry to hear about what's happened to your daughter.

I think that a better approach to prevent such incidents happening is to have more police officers, or even just visible members of railway staff, on late-night trains. As others have said, you would need them to enforce such a coach, so surely it's better to use them to prevent crimes like this, as well as other forms of assault, from happening in the first place?

Not to mention the fact that, as a male, I'd be pretty annoyed if my train was full and standing yet there were empty seats in a females-only coach. You'd be surprised at how busy some late-night trains can get!

 

[Proud Salopian]

It won't happen because it's sexist.
EU laws won't allow it, I should think our own laws wouldn't.

Would the UK allow "male only" coaches? Sorry for your daughter.

There are female only carriages in Austria, so EU law does allow it.

Though I think it's a worrying thing, segregating men and women!!

Just stop these idiots boarding trains in the first place.

 

[northwichcat]

There are female only carriages in Austria, so EU law does allow it.

Though I think it's a worrying thing, segregating men and women!!

I wonder what reason they gave for an exemption to be given. Or I wonder if it has existed longer than the equalities law and it's just not been challenged e.g. it was declared that insurance companies in the UK were breaching the law in offering different rates to male and female applicants but got away with it for a while and got given time to make the changes required.

 

[Evvy73]

I was travelling in Australia a few years ago and found that the City trains at night time had their ticket inspectors/guards replaced with the equivalent of Transport Police. They ALWAYS were based in the same carriage and this was indicated by a blue light on the outside of the carriage, along with markings on the Platform to indicate where the 'safe carriage' would be on arrival.

The idea behind this was exactly to ensure that people travelling on their own did not feel vulnerable and it seemed to work well.

I accept that employing a member of the BTP on all evening trains may not be practical, however if the Ticket Inspector/Guard's location could be clearly identifiable, then people could always aim for that carriage to get the feeling of a bit more security.

This doesn't help with DOO trains though...........I think there should be someone on all trains (especially at night).

 

[ert47]

They have female only coaches in Japan, but they're only in operation during peak hours. While I dont think it would work at those times over here, there could be a potential for something similar.

 

[Ferret]

The Dubai metro has a women only part of a carriage. Different culture to ours of course!

 

[GB]

Just stop these idiots boarding trains in the first place.

How can you do that if you don't know who the "idiots" are?

As to the OP. Hope your daughter (and yourself for that matter) recover as soon as she can under the circumstances and I hope they find the person that did it a string him up by the you know what!

 

[Michael.Y]

So....how would this work on a 153?

 

[thelongestroad]

So....how would this work on a 153?

Males in the vestibules and extended luggage rack.

 

[starrymarkb]

They have female only coaches in Japan, but they're only in operation during peak hours. While I dont think it would work at those times over here, there could be a potential for something similar.

Groping of Women on crowded commuter trains is a serious problem in Japan

I personally would rather more staff on late night trains, make things safer for everyone.

 

[Trog]

I can remember there being women only compartments on BR trains. I seem to remember there being a green triangular sticker on the window in a similar style to the old no smoking signs.

There was also a seperate ladies waiting room at Berkhampstead until only a couple of years ago, when they decided to make the normal waiting room a coffee shop.

 

[the sniper]

I accept that employing a member of the BTP on all evening trains may not be practical, however if the Ticket Inspector/Guard's location could be clearly identifiable, then people could always aim for that carriage to get the feeling of a bit more security.

This doesn't help with DOO trains though...........I think there should be someone on all trains (especially at night).

This is what I don't get. I don't travel on trains much as a passenger anymore, particularly late at night, but whenever I did I almost always sat in the carriage the Guard was in, or failing that the front carriage. I did this so that I'd be able to shout for assistance or bang on the cab door if I was in trouble. Now, not every Driver or Guard would go out of their way to help you, but I'd rather bank on them helping me then being stuck in a carriage alone.

As a guard now I'm always bemused by lone people on late night trains putting themselves as far from me and the driver as possible. I suppose people just don't think about these things or plan for the worst, which is probably fair enough given how unlikely it is that you'll be a victim of crime.

Anyway, my greatest sympathies go out to you Richmond Commuter and your daughter. Personally I don't think a Female Only carriage would really help much, it would be difficult to enforce and be of limited benefit. Plus in my experience lone males are more likely to be victims of crime than females, though they're much more likely to victims of robberies than sexual offences.

 

[route:oxford]

However, I do wonder whether the introduction of female only carriages on certain trains late at night might help to prevent further attacks from taking place.

Your thoughts on this would be most welcome.

When you say "female only", do you mean female at birth or female now?

It's so terribly difficult nowadays. After an "incident" at work involving a pre-operative transexual colleague the ladies and gentleman lavatories have been knocked into one 12 bay unit with 2 disabled bays.

 

[yorksrob]

As a guard now I'm always bemused by lone people on late night trains putting themselves as far from me and the driver as possible. I suppose people just don't think about these things or plan for the worst, which is probably fair enough given how unlikely it is that you'll be a victim of crime.

Realistically, is there a lot a driver could do, even if the person were in the carriage next door ?

I suppose it would be quite possible install a compartment next to the guards office (it would have to be the type with a side corridoor as there would be no point if passengers had to walk through the section anyway), although there's the issue of what to do if it's a driver only train. Also if you have multiple units joined, it might not be apparent which compartment has the guard next to it. I think the big question would be in how you enforce the ladies only compartment.

As with others on here, my sympathies go out to Richmond Commuter and his family.

 

[the sniper]

Realistically, is there a lot a driver could do, even if the person were in the carriage next door ?

They'd at least know the situation that you were in and could either help, get help or just show their face at the next station. Realistically there isn't much the Guard can do either, but it takes away the assailants advantage of having you isolated. A lot of people like this shy away from robbing/assaulting people where there are other members of the public or people of authority (i.e. rail staff) about. It's all about making yourself less of an appealing target.