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Felixstowe OHLE

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Bald Rick

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So my at least £ 100m 'finger in air' guess was sound ?

Yep

Perhaps the Port of Felixstowe would be willing to part fund the project as they stand to benefit the most from it.

They didn’t contribute to the Trimley loop extension, nor the Bacon Factory Curve....

Also, how do you think the Port would benefit?


My idea was that it wouldn't require the expense of rebuilding several overbridges with just the one being required. Ideally you'd demolish the houses and electricfy and double the whole lot with a second viaduct.

Rebuilding an overbridge isn’t expensive compared to two sets of points and all the signalling necessary to control them and the single line between them.
 
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Trainfan344

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Surely if the port can get more freight in and out by rail it means they can handle more containers a day and therefore more profit? It's far fetched thinking I will admit.
 

AM9

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The solution is to have a exchange sidings whereby the electric locomotive comes off and a diesel shunter of some kind moves on and pulls the train in. Or even better Bi modes to use the engine to get them into the yard and back to the electric.



I would define a huge budget in terms of a rail project as being £500m+. Rail projects are getting more expensive. Perhaps the Port of Felixstowe would be willing to part fund the project as they stand to benefit the most from it.
I would imagine that there might be a green dimension in BCRs in the not too distant future. Either freight haulage by electric motive power will have lower track access charges than diesel, of certain sectors of routes might be restricted to low/zero emissions traffic. The NLL might be one of those. In that context, larger investments will be considered better than the 'do nothing' option just to svae up front cash. Wiring the Felixstowe branch would involve just under 15 route kilometers of which over 80% is immediately adjacent to residential areas. The run into London and round to the WCML also involves another 115 km of which over 35km is through residential areas. So all of that will weigh towards the electrification of just 15km to remove almost all diesel services from nearly 50km of suburban running, and that's before the CO2 arguments are examined.
 

Dr Hoo

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I don't know if posters have ever been round Felixstowe Port (I have, several times) but the three terminals really don't lend themselves to an 'electrified reception sidings + final placement/draw out by shunter' model. The place is desperately short of space as it is. Such changes would actually reduce capacity as well as reducing the overall efficiency of round-trip trunk train times.

East Suffolk Junction to Felixstowe (either entrance) is around 15 miles (not km), let alone the fact that there are two branches plus sections of double track so its quite a bit more even before the new reception sidings come into it.
 

zwk500

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I don't know if posters have ever been round Felixstowe Port (I have, several times) but the three terminals really don't lend themselves to an 'electrified reception sidings + final placement/draw out by shunter' model. The place is desperately short of space as it is. Such changes would actually reduce capacity as well as reducing the overall efficiency of round-trip trunk train times.

East Suffolk Junction to Felixstowe (either entrance) is around 15 miles (not km), let alone the fact that there are two branches plus sections of double track so its quite a bit more even before the new reception sidings come into it.
Would it be feasible to have a shunter waiting on the appropriate road, Electric gets to the throat and is dragged to the end by the shunter, then an electrified release road is provided for the loco to runround for it's next working?
 

Dr Hoo

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Would it be feasible to have a shunter waiting on the appropriate road, Electric gets to the throat and is dragged to the end by the shunter, then an electrified release road is provided for the loco to runround for it's next working?
Not very easy with a traverser!
 

Tobbes

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Just found my crayons so fancy a bit of speculating. Anyway a bit of an idea for how to do dualling and electrification

From Westerfield, build a second track to act as a passing loop, this would stretch from the junction at Westerfield which would be remodelled to be a double lead junction to the North of the station. The second track would end where the first overbridge is. This would allow a full length frieght to stand clear in either direction if needed.

Between the new Single track and the Viaduct I would rebuild the Albion Hill overbridge before the viaduct and install another full lenght frieght passing loop here too.

I'd extend the dual track between Derby road and just before the A1156 overbridge to provide room for 2 full lenght frieghts if needed

Then there is room for dual track alongside the A1156 before Martlesham Car Centre which could be Compulsary Purchased if needed. If not then a small section of single track before slewing to the right and then double track all the way between there and the ports.

I feel this is a great way to get a lot of benefits without a huge budget.
Well, the good news is that the A14 overbridge was actually future proofed by being readied for a second line.... Waverley route, take careful note!
 

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Bald Rick

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Surely if the port can get more freight in and out by rail it means they can handle more containers a day and therefore more profit? It's far fetched thinking I will admit.

It is.

Berth capacity, stack capacity and crane capacity are all more a limit to how many containers the port can handle than the number of trains. At least they were last time I went round the port. There’s a near inexhaustible supply of road hauliers that will shift a box on or off the port, using the dual carriageways that run right up to the port gate.

It is very, very rare for a freight terminal to spend big money on the national network to deliver increased capacity, unless they are required to as part of the planning consent process.

I would imagine that there might be a green dimension in BCRs in the not too distant future.

There has been since they were invented. What might change is the £value of carbon. Of course hybrid locos may change the equation somewhat.
 

AM9

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I don't know if posters have ever been round Felixstowe Port (I have, several times) but the three terminals really don't lend themselves to an 'electrified reception sidings + final placement/draw out by shunter' model. The place is desperately short of space as it is. Such changes would actually reduce capacity as well as reducing the overall efficiency of round-trip trunk train times.

East Suffolk Junction to Felixstowe (either entrance) is around 15 miles (not km), let alone the fact that there are two branches plus sections of double track so its quite a bit more even before the new reception sidings come into it.
Ooops, yes I meant to convert the number of miles to km. I did refer to them as "route kilometers" so the distance is the same whether single or double track, and I took on board the comments of others (including you) about wiring into the port, so I only assumed for wiring to Felixstowe passenger terminus.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

... There has been since they were invented. What might change is the £value of carbon. Of course hybrid locos may change the equation somewhat.

I didn't know that but it's good to know that some consideration has been taking place. I presume that environmental considerations are great in a BCR, until the DfT decides that they cost too much. I agree with you on the increasing benefit of reduced carbon in a new works proposal, - somethimng that might be even more persuasive for rail if the penalty of carbon starts to impact on long-haul road transport.
 
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Bald Rick

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I don't know if posters have ever been round Felixstowe Port (I have, several times) but the three terminals really don't lend themselves to an 'electrified reception sidings + final placement/draw out by shunter' model. The place is desperately short of space as it is. Such changes would actually reduce capacity as well as reducing the overall efficiency of round-trip trunk train times.

Couple more reception roads on the north branch and beach branch. Engine neck at Trimley. Push everything in ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I presume that environmental considerations are great in a BCR, until the DfT decides that they cost too much.

Not so.

Saving a tonne of CO2e is worth £60.83 in a business case, and increases by some seemingly random amounts year on year for future years. It can quickly add up, and is just another B in the BCR. If the BCR makes the grade, regardless of what the ‘B’s are, then the project is a goer.
 
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AM9

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Couple more reception roads on the north branch and beach branch. Engine neck at Trimley. Push everything in ;)

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==



Not so.

Saving a tonne of CO2e is worth £60.83 in a business case, and increases by some seemingly random amounts year on year for future years. It can quickly add up, and is just another B in the BCR. If the BCR makes the grade, regardless of what the ‘B’s are, then the project is a goer.
That's really good news, the UK commitment to zero carbon certainly doesn't look like falling by the wayside now.
 

HSTEd

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That's really good news, the UK commitment to zero carbon certainly doesn't look like falling by the wayside now.
£60.83 per tonne of CO2e is tiny though.

That would imply they would only ascribe the "benefit" of total decarbonisation to be £21bn per year or so.
That is nowhere near enough.
 

AM9

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£60.83 per tonne of CO2e is tiny though.

That would imply they would only ascribe the "benefit" of total decarbonisation to be £21bn per year or so.
That is nowhere near enough.
That's a different subject to wiring the Felixstowe branch.
 

ac6000cw

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The solution is to have a exchange sidings whereby the electric locomotive comes off and a diesel shunter of some kind moves on and pulls the train in. Or even better Bi modes to use the engine to get them into the yard and back to the electric.
The 'exchange sidings' have existed for a long time - it's called Ipswich Yard (which isn't exactly a long way away from the terminals at Felixstowe) ;)

Getting the crayons out :):

If you wanted to move the mainline traction exchange point closer to the terminals, build a new transfer yard in the open country on the Ipswich side of Trimley, then build another (freight only) track alongside the Trimley to Felixstowe (town) stretch. That would provide access to all the terminals directly from the new yard without interacting with the passenger services through and east of Trimley. So the north track would be passenger only, south track freight only.

East of the new yard near Trimley, all freight would then be hauled by a small fleet of OHLE & battery 'transfer' locos between the yard and all the terminals - so effectively all of that freight trackage becomes part of the port railway system.
 
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GB

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OLE on the branch is pointless as it stands at the moment. With all operators having a significant investment in 66's they are not going to spend even more on AC traction...even less so with the added complications within the terminals.

On the subject of doubling the line, I know its impossible to do all of it but another larger loop between the A14 bridge and Strattonhall would be a huge boost. The new loop at Trimley has allowed more services and has been a invaluable regulating spot.
 

HSTEd

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Freight operators will not embrace electric traction unless they are compelled to.
 

A0

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Freight operators will not embrace electric traction unless they are compelled to.

Any evidence to support that assertion or is it just unfounded opinion ?

Last time I checked some freight operators were using electric traction. The problem is for some - and running in ports is probably one such example and I can think of others - electric traction isn't practical. There's a risk of perfection becoming the enemy of the good where electrification is concerned. By all means let's look to eliminate diesel for passenger services - but don't constrain that to being electrification on one or other of the systems in use when battery, hybrid or hydrogen can all play a part.
 

GB

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Any evidence to support that assertion or is it just unfounded opinion ?

Might be an opinion but I wouldn't necessarily say its unfounded because there is a lot of logic and commonsense to it. A typical 66 costs about £1-1.5M second hand. A new electric loco will be much much more than that. Why would they go for that option (with the added driver training requirements) when they can use their 66's and rotate them between different flows and commodities? Freightliner are the biggest user of electric traction yet not even half of their services are electric.
 

A0

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Might be an opinion but I wouldn't necessarily say its unfounded because there is a lot of logic and commonsense to it. A typical 66 costs about £1-1.5M second hand. A new electric loco will be much much more than that. Why would they go for that option (with the added driver training requirements) when they can use their 66's and rotate them between different flows and commodities? Freightliner are the biggest user of electric traction yet not even half of their services are electric.

Be realistic - the first 66s arrived between 1998 and 2008 so are between 12 and 22 years old, the second batch arrived in 2014/15 so are nearer 7 years old. All of those locos have got 10 - 30 years reasonable working life left in them. And ordering diesel at that time was the right decision, based on replacing legacy diesel locos which were far more polluting.

The original 66s were about £1.5m - that was 15 years ago, so taking inflation into account you're looking at over £ 2m - what's the cost of an electric loco ?
 

zwk500

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Might be an opinion but I wouldn't necessarily say its unfounded because there is a lot of logic and commonsense to it. A typical 66 costs about £1-1.5M second hand. A new electric loco will be much much more than that. Why would they go for that option (with the added driver training requirements) when they can use their 66's and rotate them between different flows and commodities? Freightliner are the biggest user of electric traction yet not even half of their services are electric.
The original assertion is that FOCs have no interest in Electric traction, which isn't true. The reason for the lack of electric haulage is, as you quite rightly point out, for economic and operational reasons. If the electrified network covered routes operators wanted to go, and was cleared to allow the traffic operators wanted to run, I suspect DB, GBRf and Freightliner would quite happily get their electric traction out and about. They wouldn't necessarily need to be forced into it.
 

Bald Rick

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Agreed - the FOCs would unquestionably use more electric traction if the whole route of the flow was electrified. The saving in ‘fuel’ cost is quite significant over time. With wholesale diesel prices now back up at pre-pandemic levels, when the FOCs hedges expire electric haulage will start to look a lot more attractive.
 

popeter45

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the issue with electric locos at the moment is the shear lack of them at the moment
compare 140 total electric locos in operation (16 86's, 10 88's, 50 90's, 31, 91's and 33 92's) vs the 480 class 66's alone and you see the issue
not to mention bar the small class of 88's the last major design is now over 25 years old if we want to move more freight away from diesel we need a new major batch of traction and the 30 93's wont cut it in the long term
 

zwk500

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the issue with electric locos at the moment is the shear lack of them at the moment
compare 140 total electric locos in operation (16 86's, 10 88's, 50 90's, 31, 91's and 33 92's) vs the 480 class 66's alone and you see the issue
not to mention bar the small class of 88's the last major design is now over 25 years old if we want to move more freight away from diesel we need a new major batch of traction and the 30 93's wont cut it in the long term
That's a symptom not a cause though - if there was an opportunity for electric freight TOCs would have ordered some, but why spend money on locos they can't use? If we want more all-out electric freight we need to put wires up. And work out how to operate top-loading terminals (which is the overwhelming majority) efficiently with locos that need wires.
 

A0

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the issue with electric locos at the moment is the shear lack of them at the moment
compare 140 total electric locos in operation (16 86's, 10 88's, 50 90's, 31, 91's and 33 92's) vs the 480 class 66's alone and you see the issue
not to mention bar the small class of 88's the last major design is now over 25 years old if we want to move more freight away from diesel we need a new major batch of traction and the 30 93's wont cut it in the long term

But you're forgetting that the total number of 86s built was 100 and there were 36 class 87s - all built for primarily passenger work and replaced with high speed EMUs.

Over the last 30 years the rail network has moved away from using locos on passenger services - so the number of electric locos in operation isn't really representative of anything because their main source of work has disappeared.

And with the 66s the first 250 of those were ordered over 20 years ago to replace 30-40 year old BR diesels.
 

Bald Rick

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And with the 66s the first 250 of those were ordered over 20 years ago to replace 30-40 year old BR diesels.

Also, how many of the 66 fleet are still in service on these shores? I thought quite a few had gone on holiday to foreign shores, and at least one is now tin cans.
 

A0

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Also, how many of the 66 fleet are still in service on these shores? I thought quite a few had gone on holiday to foreign shores, and at least one is now tin cans.
Just over 400.

According to Wikipedia (usual caveats about accuracy)

Colas - 5
DB Cargo - 161
DRS - 24
F'liner - 127
GBRF - 91

Total 408
 

hwl

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Thanks - good to know.
I'm not sure those numbers are wholly accurate, only 383 in active pools on TOPS yesterday at quick count (there are some stored and some new imports for GBRf so real number will be higher) . The DB number is too high, it still includes locos that are now with DRS which are also included in the DRS number.
And while Freightliner should only be 116 included those stored off active pools. The number above included those abroad or that have been passed to other operators.
 
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Domh245

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Just over 400.

According to Wikipedia (usual caveats about accuracy)

Colas - 5
DB Cargo - 161
DRS - 24
F'liner - 127
GBRF - 91

Total 408

Of the original UK deliveries though there's been a total of 97 exported (80 66/0s to ECR and DBC Poland, 17 from various FL classes to Freightliner PL) countered by 8 imports for GBRF from Europe. In addition, there's been 2 scrapped* (521 & 734) for a net change of 91 less than delivered to UK

*048 (carrbridge) whilst not scrapped is highly unlikely to work again!
 

ac6000cw

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Agreed - the FOCs would unquestionably use more electric traction if the whole route of the flow was electrified. The saving in ‘fuel’ cost is quite significant over time. With wholesale diesel prices now back up at pre-pandemic levels, when the FOCs hedges expire electric haulage will start to look a lot more attractive.
So if you wanted (as an example) to borrow money to fund the cost of electrifying the GE-GN joint line between Werrington and Doncaster on the basis of lower energy/fuel costs, how long a payback period would you need?

(I deliberately picked that route as the main beneficiary electrification would probably be freight - the relatively sparse passenger service would probably never justify electrification).
 
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