FCC - what is going on?

[jon0844]

I like to think I'm pretty fair when pointing out problems on FCC, and I like to think I do always say when they do things right. Most of the time they're fine, at least on the GN side, and most staff are very friendly and helpful.

But standards seem to be slipping, or else I'm just incredibly unlucky!

Yesterday, I was on a train to London and got on the train to see two RPIs that were sitting chatting at the far end of the train. One RPI had her feet on the seats and was telling her colleague not to bother checking yet as they'd just started (true, only one stop gone).



That was bad enough (lead by example etc), but then they began talking about rioting in Brixton and Tottenham and the male RPI started on a long rant about how much better they were in Tottenham. He started saying how 'we' (the people of Tottenham) killed the police officer in 1985 as payback for the person who died in custody. He joked that they were too soft in Brixton.

After that, he went on to say they should have done it again for Mark Duggan. He was convinced it was a fit up and it was obvious Mark never had a gun and it's just what the police do to 'them'.

Now he's entitled to his opinion, and he may be right on certain issues, but I'd stop way short of encouraging murder. Still, freedom of speech and all that - but in front of other passengers? It was like he wanted to just wind everyone else up, but believe me - he wasn't joking around. He was very angry and I find it hard to believe how he could ever call upon BTP to help him given his views of them - even saying that the Daily Mail (which she was reading) was a fascist paper (I'll give him that!).

I just bit my lip and said nothing.

Eventually they decided to do a ticket check, where I got her name (by looking at her badge, not talking to either of them) but not his as he didn't have his on. And, no, this wasn't my 'friendly' RPI. In fact, I hadn't ever seen them before.

I've complained to FCC and given details as I didn't think this was acceptable behaviour at all.

Then tonight, I got a train home and it was diverted on to the fast line after Finsbury Park (it had been delayed). It was an 8-car 321 and was scheduled to stop at New Southgate, which it did. And for whatever reason, it stopped short so the rear door opened just at the end of the bottom of the platform ramp.

The people wanting to alight wondered how to get off, and at least one passenger decided to jump and the others suddenly ran through to the next set of doors (from the panic, I presume that at least one would have complained to staff at the station).

That's a clear safety issue and yet the train just closed the doors and continued on without the driver presumably aware at all. I've also reported this to FCC. I am sorry if a driver gets asked for an explanation, but I can't see any justification for letting something like this go.

 

[Aictos]

No employee of any TOC should be airing views like that publicly especially if they're likely to offend people, it's bad enough being in full uniform with your feet up which most TOCs don't like their passengers to do so their staff certainly ought not to do so but to be in full uniform and spout offensive views is certainly out of order.

I certainly believe you did the right thing in complaining to FCC about their actions as it's not acceptable.

 

[NSE]

Is that service regularly booked as an 8 car 321? because I'm fairly certain many stations between Finsbury Park and Stevenage are 6-car length. Which would explain the platform issue. But I very much doubt that would be the case.

 

[WestCoast]

Not professional at all, is it? It does affect the reputation of the TOC.

On Merseyrail, RPIs hand out fines to passengers for "feet on seats".

 

[embers25]

Reminds me of the ticket checkers and the trolley staff (NOTE not the guards or the spare driver who travels to Exeter to do the return service and often helps passengers) who can often be all found lounging around first class in a group between Salisbury and Exeter. Then again Salisbury-Exeter services are a bit odd in that on some the guard checks and issues tickets and yet on others there are one or two ticket checkers/issues and the guard stays in the cab.

 

[jon0844]

Is that service regularly booked as an 8 car 321? because I'm fairly certain many stations between Finsbury Park and Stevenage are 6-car length. Which would explain the platform issue. But I very much doubt that would be the case.

It's regularly 8-car but usually stops on the slow side. I can't think why the driver may have stopped short, but the platform should be long enough. Maybe the 8-car/S-stop is in the wrong position on the fast (somewhat unlikely)? I think that's up to FCC to establish - if they decide to investigate.

Reminds me of the ticket checkers and the trolley staff (NOTE not the guards or the spare driver who travels to Exeter to do the return service and often helps passengers) who can often be all found lounging around first class in a group between Salisbury and Exeter. Then again Salisbury-Exeter services are a bit odd in that on some the guard checks and issues tickets and yet on others there are one or two ticket checkers/issues and the guard stays in the cab.

If they were just sitting on the train chatting (about something rather different!) and not bothering to do a check, that's not for me to be to worry about. Perhaps they were on a break or had been working since 5am and on their way home - or told to lay off as they were needed elsewhere and couldn't get themselves tied up with something. But one wasn't bothered about doing the check they were obviously meant to do (as the colleague was saying 'shall we go' and even standing up at one point to begin), so she could finish reading the paper - and, I forgot to add, throwing the inserts on the seat next to her. He then decided to give his public anti-police rant and spout other racist comments.

Although there's no sound, if FCC pulled the CCTV footage from the train they'd see this for themselves.

 

[Dr.iver]

I guess when this alledged stop short occurred you rushed to alert the driver about what had allegedly happened or did you as quick as a flash log onto twitter to report it to Ally ?
Now as much as I disagree with those two RPI's why didn't you just approach them and tell them politely that what they were saying was offensive to you, if they then persisted or gave you abuse then reported and post pics etc but not before, clearly they thought they were having a private conversation so you could have pointed out to them the fact that it wasn't.

 

[AlterEgo]

Now as much as I disagree with those two RPI's why didn't you just approach them and tell them politely that what they were saying was offensive to you, if they then persisted or gave you abuse then reported and post pics etc but not before, clearly they thought they were having a private conversation so you could have pointed out to them the fact that it wasn't.

Sorry - I don't agree. Being staff myself, I try to stick up for rail staff as much as possible, but the situation described by the OP is reprehensible. There's no way an RPI can expect to have a "private conversation" on a train; it's his place of work, full of customers. I'm appalled that anyone would say what he said, and surprised he's been daft enough to do it at work! :roll:

While I don't agree with posting pictures, a complaint is well justified!

 

[Firestarter]

Sorry - I don't agree. Being staff myself, I try to stick up for rail staff as much as possible, but the situation described by the OP is reprehensible. There's no way an RPI can expect to have a "private conversation" on a train; it's his place of work, full of customers. I'm appalled that anyone would say what he said, and surprised he's been daft enough to do it at work! :roll:

While I don't agree with posting pictures, a complaint is well justified!

Maybe they should have sat in first class.

 

[jon0844]

I reported the stop short to fcc privately immediately. At the rear end of an 8 car set, how could I run up and find the driver before he closed the doors and set off?

I posted the photo, with mosaic face, as I was so angry. I have not, however, named the person or the exact time.

What would you say to them when they will then likely retaliate by messing me around, taking my ticket and so on? Like happened to me last time when I was held 3 hours.

Edit: I realise some people will see me as some sort of busybody/troublemaker for getting involved with things. Believe me, I let a lot of things go - people make mistakes - but certain things cannot be ignored. Imagine if every member of staff swearing was reported? That's a common occurrence. However, bigging up the murder of a police officer is a step too far.

If I was a member of staff, it would be my duty to report these things. However, even as a member of the public, I can see when things are wrong. With regards to the stop short, I presume the idea of telling the driver only was to perhaps help keep it a secret - but the fact is, I am 99.99% sure that the person who jumped down, or those who ran up the train, will have said something. How do we know the driver didn't immediately notify someone of the problem and 'own up' anyway? That service never normally stops at that platform, and it's the first time EVER that I've been on one of these semi-fast evening peak services and been put on the fast line.

 

[wyvfe1]

Looks like an 8 Car stop marker has just been added to the 3 4 and 6 marker.

This seems like a new addition, don't remember seeing it before, new VDU's where fitted on the slow line.

 

[jon0844]

That's far too far back! Look at the monitors on the other side - that's the 8-car stop for the other side!

As you'd expect, the platform is the same length on both sides, so if the train stopped at that point then I'm surprised it was only one door off the edge and not two. The driver must have actually gone a bit further along, but not far enough.

Who is to blame for this? Network Rail? I certainly wouldn't blame the driver in this case as it may not have been clear by looking out of the window.

I am now even happier that I reported this so someone will fix this - as it seems like something that could happen every time.

 

[JoeH]

Nothing I could hear about FCC RPIs would surprise me. In my experience the behaviour of many of them is beyond merely unprofessional and in many cases is criminal.

A few years ago I was at a FCC station where the ticket office was closed, the machine was smashed up and the permit to travel machine was off. I reluctantly waited to board the train without a ticket and when it arrived stepped on and immediately informed a RPI waiting in the vestibule of the situation. He indicated he would issue me with a ticket momentarily and asked me to take a seat. Immediately after the doors closed and the train started to depart he came over to me and told me he was going to issue me with a penalty fare and threatened me with arrest and a criminal record. Knowing he was wrong I stood my ground and refused but I thought I better get off at the next station just in case.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

No employee of any TOC should be airing views like that publicly especially if they're likely to offend people.

This is also something any employee needs to consider before posting on a forum such as this one. Declaring you are employed by any concern links your comments to their image and as such can be considered as gross misconduct.

 

[Alan1310]

they were in the wrong you would all go mental if the guys at the till in Tesco or waiters in a restaurant were saying the same thing just because we like the railways or are a part of the railways doesn't mean you should expect anything less in the way of professionalism these people are there to keep you safe and help in a emergency they are the ones you expect to take charge. i for sure would have said nothing to them why antagonise the situation they clearly were not going to except the fact they were taking the p*ss while on duty

just because you have a hard day or have to deal with people all day is no excuse i am a nurse and if i were to act like this in front of your relatives you would have something to
say

ahhhhhhh i feel better now

 

[RichmondCommu]

Hopefully both RPI's are now looking for new jobs.

 

[jon0844]

Hopefully both RPI's are now looking for new jobs.

I am not sure I'd go with that and I heard it!

I haven't been asked to give a statement (in fact, I've heard nothing from FCC since they said they'd investigate), nor did I record the conversation to get any hard evidence.

While I know exactly what I saw and heard, it won't be enough to sack anyone and there must be a proper disciplinary system to go through anyway. I'd hope so - or imagine how easy it would be for someone to get staff sacked by making something up.

I do hope they do something about the member of staff with their feet on the seat - and sitting around reading a paper when they were supposed to be checking tickets (by her own admission).

Likewise, if the 8-car stop sign is in the wrong place (it clearly is), then hopefully I've saved someone potentially falling out of a train and being seriously hurt if they didn't notice the drop.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I am not sure I'd go with that and I heard it!

I haven't been asked to give a statement (in fact, I've heard nothing from FCC since they said they'd investigate), nor did I record the conversation to get any hard evidence.

While I know exactly what I saw and heard, it won't be enough to sack anyone and there must be a proper disciplinary system to go through anyway. I'd hope so - or imagine how easy it would be for someone to get staff sacked by making something up.

I do hope they do something about the member of staff with their feet on the seat - and sitting around reading a paper when they were supposed to be checking tickets (by her own admission).

Likewise, if the 8-car stop sign is in the wrong place (it clearly is), then hopefully I've saved someone potentially falling out of a train and being seriously hurt if they didn't notice the drop.

My wife is a copper of 22 years experience based in Southwark. Now although I whole heartily agree that the circumstances concerning the death of Mark Duggan certainly require an independent investigation, to make light of the riots that occurred in north and south London is completely wrong.

 

[jon0844]

Indeed. My grandfather was a police officer, and I know other people who are in active service - including one who was in Hackney on the Tuesday where it kicked off again. Not that this changes anything; what the RPI was saying was offensive - and worrying - no matter what or who I know.

I am glad that the circumstances showed that most people do support the police and want them to protect them. It's a shame that the police had their hands tied early on.

 

[cointreau_rove]

The subject matter discussed (as reported) indicates a far wider issue of social disintegration. I am sure that the subject discussed would be offensive to most but to me it indicates that the cohesion of our society is still along way off being balanced.Before any one thinks of this as being a "race" issue - uit is not. I lived in Brixton and Tottenham during my time in London (over40 years) and irrespective of whether the speakers are employed or not there is a widening gap in perception of a society that offers a fair and impartial life.
In the context of their converation on the train - they were very naieve to think that there would not be a reaction to their choice of topic. That they did it whilst "at work" in the presence of paying (and from their presence non payers) was crass and inexcusable.
How to deal with it - well dismissal is a non starter - it would be seen as hearsay and difficult to prove. The usual response in areas I work is "retraining" or awareness of impact type chats.
Diffiicult one and one I would have struggled to know what to do about. I would like to think that would have sppoken to them about it directly but really would any of us?
I think I am more saddened than angry that the perceptions of ordinary sections of the population, in paid employment, have these feelings but they will know members of their community that are part of the broken society - perhaps it is a conversaiton for a non rail forum? Sign of the times - no doubt but sad all the same. Enforceable as a disciplinary issue - doubtful in the lack of corroborative witnesses. Probably a telling off for the feet on seats more likely

That this is not dealt with more rigidly is also a sign of the times - I have a photograph of a selfish cyclist with his bicycle placed across 3 seats on an Oxford - Reading - London train which was not quite full but the cycle was overhanging to the point that the trolley service could not get through and people had to pass by sideways - comment from the Train Manager - nothing.... If we demand standards of behaviour it must be from all involved, consistent and fair - including how we passengers behave.

If anyone wants the pic let me know and I will post it. Just let me know where - said cyclist is sitting opposite deeply in love with his wheels....

Rant over

C

 

[Greenback]

Most probably all that will happen is that a general reminder will be issued to all staff about appropriate behaviour while on duty, incluidng feet on seats.Some managers may have a chat with the two reported, if only to let them know what has been said, but Cointreau is right. The majority won't do anything specific as the evidence is insufficient.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure they'll be 'watched' more closely in the future, but that's about all that could happen realistically. CCTV would merely prove they were sitting around casually (perhaps the other RPI had his feet up too - I couldn't see) instead of doing their job. I have no doubt FCC could then check further CCTV to see what else they did that day. Or, FCC could opt to do bugger all about it and - as Greenback says - just issue a reminder in the next staff memo/bulletin.

It was a race issue in the case of the male RPI who constantly referred to 'them' and 'us' - as if he was associating himself with the very people who took positive action against the police officer in 1985 (i.e. saying 'we' got our own back). Clearly his age suggested he could have had nothing to do with it.

But, he's free to have his own opinions and I don't know what his own personal experiences have been with the police that he so obviously hates to the point where murder is seen as getting even/payback.

The thing is that he should have kept quiet, but what's more - he must work and rely on the police to do his job. How can he support the group killing of a police officer when he may one day call upon them to deal with any number of incidents that could happen when he's doing his job?

 

[Greenback]

Quite. I'm disappointed, but not surprised, that someone can actually be employed in a uniformed position of authority while holding such views. It makes them a bit of a hypocrite in my book!

 

[Aictos]

This is also something any employee needs to consider before posting on a forum such as this one. Declaring you are employed by any concern links your comments to their image and as such can be considered as gross misconduct.

Excuse me but I fail to see your point, I apply these views to any company - I certainly wouldn't expect to hear such comments being made in other places such as ASDA or Primark for example, I didn't name any TOCs as I just said such comments are unacceptable and are not welcomed in any business, I used the word TOCs in general terms much like I would use similar titles for supernarkets etc...

Now, can we please give the staff bashing a rest as it's getting rather tiresome.