FCC units usage on SET journeys

[Alex-JER/LGW]

I was recently at Orpington on a Saturday evening and surprised by the number of Class 319's from FCC stored both within the sidings and on the platforms. Must have been at least 6-8 units.

My question is based around their usage and storage during evenings and weekends.

I am not clear as to why there is not a 'through' Thameslink service from Sevenoaks in the evenings and weekends first of all. I think that there was in about 1992? Can anyone explain this.

Secondly, could these stored 319's not be used on the evening and weekend services for SET into Blackfriars? Would this not be better than them sitting in sidings being vandalised?

Appreciate that I have asked a new questions here (hopefully this is the right forum?) but would be very grateful if somebody could give me the full story here...

Thanks

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Secondly, could these stored 319's not be used on the evening and weekend services for SET into Blackfriars? Would this not be better than them sitting in sidings being vandalised?....

Depends on your point of view, passengers would love to see more choice of service. The problem is that, although the units themselves won't actually cost any extra to run, train crew does and if the number of extra tickets sold because of the service does not bring in more money than the cost of the service, it is not viable. This is without considering the effect on the maintenance cycles for the units.

 

[Antman]

There are always 319's berthed at Orpington and Bellingham sidings at weekends and two 8 car 377's at Ashford, these work peak hour services via Maidstone East.

I think through services from Sevenoaks were withdrawn at weekends because of the Thameslink 2000 works, or whatever it's called now?

I just assumed the 319's were used as little as possible as they are such horrible trains?

 

[jon0844]

Nothing wrong with a 319. Of course, the interiors varied across the fleet and that makes a difference to the comfort and ambience.

As long as FCC has been stuck with so few trains, getting them all refreshed has been a nightmare and I assume there are still quite a few left undone? In fact, I'd expect some won't be done at all now before more 377s come to let the 319s go completely, whereby they can receive some proper refurbishment work to make them as good as new.

It's a shame they've been stabled in places where they regularly get hit by vandals, and the inevitable bad impression it gives of FCC by passengers. Passengers who would go mental if the trains weren't put into service because they were being cleaned.

 

[Class377/5]

I was recently at Orpington on a Saturday evening and surprised by the number of Class 319's from FCC stored both within the sidings and on the platforms. Must have been at least 6-8 units.

My question is based around their usage and storage during evenings and weekends.

I am not clear as to why there is not a 'through' Thameslink service from Sevenoaks in the evenings and weekends first of all. I think that there was in about 1992? Can anyone explain this.

Secondly, could these stored 319's not be used on the evening and weekend services for SET into Blackfriars? Would this not be better than them sitting in sidings being vandalised?

Appreciate that I have asked a new questions here (hopefully this is the right forum?) but would be very grateful if somebody could give me the full story here...

Thanks

The reason is because the services were joined due to the bays being taken out of service for rebuilding works. However the late night services were run wholly by SET into Victoria. This changed to the bays at Blackfriars upon the opening. However as they are a wholly SE service, there isn't the FCC drivers available to actually drive them for the short distance between Blackfriars and Cricklewood. Not that at that time there is a huge demand any way.

Second point is that not all SET are 319 trained so they can't diagram them. Same with the 377/5 that SE have every night/weekend. They can use the units if they want but its easier to not use them as all SET drivers are 319/377 trained. (For example 375 to 377 training takes a week).

At the weekends the following stock is berthed at various SE locations.

377/5
4x Ashford
2x Victoria sheds

319
4x Bellingham sidings
4x Orpington
2x Sevenoaks
4x Victoria sheds

Week nights

377/5
4x Ashford
2x Victoria sheds

319
4x Bellingham sidings
8x Orpington
2x Sevenoaks
4x Victoria sheds

 

[fusionblue]

When the new 377s come in, will any of them be used on Sevenoaks/Sutton services or will they be only heading south to brighton and beyond?

 

[Eagle]

I think that there was in about 1992? Can anyone explain this.

While the fast Thameslink services have always been Bedford to Brighton, the destination of the slow services south of the river has changed quite a few times. When it initially opened in 1988 it took services to Orpington and Sevenoaks being as these were the ones that used the soon-to-be-closed Holborn Viaduct station. However a couple of years later for a reason I'm not sure why, they were switched to go to Guildford via Epsom. At privatization, this route was considered unsuitable because it ran through two franchises' territories, so it changed again to a route wholly within the South Central division, namely the Wimbledon loop. (There are a few relics of these changes, such as Southern still operating peak services to both Guildford and Wimbledon.)

The Sevenoaks Thameslink services reappeared in 2009 for pretty much the same reason they were first created 20 years before: the Blackfriars bays that they used were closed, so they were extended to the next place to the north it was convenient to terminate, namely Kentish Town. At the same time, the various other peak extras which would have gone to Blackfriars were joined up to the peak trains on the Midland which would previously have gone to Moorgate, which is why you get all kinds of weird services during the peak like Bedford to Ashford and Luton to Kent House.

 

[Alex-JER/LGW]

Thanks for all the replies.Interesting to get a detailed picture.

Just to build upon the answers received around the units stored overnight and at weekends,what happens to these early mornings?

Are there lots of FCC ECS movements across SET?

 

[Class377/5]

When the new 377s come in, will any of them be used on Sevenoaks/Sutton services or will they be only heading south to brighton and beyond?

No-one knows for sure yet as it will be the TSGN that decides that. With the Brighton route set to be wholly 377 by late 2015 its likely some of the units will head for either Sevenoaks or Sutton in 2016 as the 700s take over the Brighton to Bedford route.

Note there has been a few rare 377/5 services around the Loop. Rare as in one or two since March 2009.

Thanks for all the replies.Interesting to get a detailed picture.

Just to build upon the answers received around the units stored overnight and at weekends,what happens to these early mornings?

Are there lots of FCC ECS movements across SET?

Technically they are SET movement in their own territory.

There are a few weird 319 moves likes Sutton to Orpington via Tulse Hill and Birkbeck, Victoria Shed to Orpington plus Sevenoaks to Orpington direct.

The 377/5 have rarer moves including Rochester to Victoria. They've been known to visit Tonbridge and I've seen a Bedford to Victoria via Loughborough Junction ECS.

 

[Firestarter]

the reason is because the services were joined due to the bays being taken out of service for rebuilding works. However the late night services were run wholly by set into victoria. This changed to the bays at blackfriars upon the opening. However as they are a wholly se service, there isn't the fcc drivers available to actually drive them for the short distance between blackfriars and cricklewood. Not that at that time there is a huge demand any way.

Second point is that not all set are 319 trained so they can't diagram them. Same with the 377/5 that se have every night/weekend. They can use the units if they want but its easier to not use them as all set drivers are 319/377 trained. (for example 375 to 377 training takes a week).

At the weekends the following stock is berthed at various se locations.

eh??:?

 

[Class377/5]

eh??:?

SET = Southeastern Trains.

Only a handful of SET drivers are trained to use 377 and a few more are 319 trained. However at weekend and early morning/late at night there aren't so many trained up so they can't be sure a driver can drive FCC stock so they use their own units instead.

From memory its Orpington depot who are trained for 319's and Tonbridge for 377's.

 

[Eagle]

SET = Southeastern Trains.

Except South Eastern Trains ceased to exist in 2006 when the franchise was passed over to the incumbent TOC, Southeastern (short for London and Southeastern Railway).

 

[Class377/5]

Except South Eastern Trains ceased to exist in 2006 when the franchise was passed over to the incumbent TOC, Southeastern (short for London and Southeastern Railway).

Same applies to North/East London Lines as they replaced the word lines with railway but old name sticks.

Certainly used to using SET or SE, hadn't realised it was actually only SE now.

 

[yorkie]

eh??:?

Indeed.

I think he meant to say something like this:

Second point is that not all SE drivers are trained on how to drive Class 377 / 319 units, so they can't easily be diagrammed. It takes a week for each driver to go on a 375 to 377 conversion course.

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