FCC ticketing error in Guardian

[jon0844]

Ticket office staff do make mistakes and I can well believe this story.

Yes they do, and yes you could. But it might still not be true in this individual case.

I find it hard to see how the paper could know either way, yet it chose to side with the passenger. Not a massive issue for a story of this nature, besides it giving ammunition to all the anti-rail people, but perhaps a little more worrying for other stories where reporters take what they're told as gospel.

Passenger gets caught making a mistake and he is guilty as charged.

Staff member gets caught making a mistake and it's "Impossible to tell the truth of what happened".

i love this place....

But that's not reality. Look at other posts on here, and you'll see plenty of cases where someone has been helped when encountering problems through no fault of their own - often with favourable outcomes.

 

[sheff1]

Is the law not worded quite clearly? No/invalid ticket = offence committed? It's also fairly easy to prove that such a situation occurred.

How would you prove/disprove that an 'authorised person' gave permission for travel without a valid ticket? Surely just another case of one person's word against another's.

 

[NSEFAN]

How would you prove/disprove that an 'authorised person' gave permission for travel without a valid ticket? Surely just another case of one person's word against another's.

True, I hadn't thought of that scenario.

How do we solve these problems to prevent innocent customers from being penalised, whilst avoiding making the "man on the platform said it was valid" argument easier? IIRC, new ticket stock has a space for endorsements to be added.

 

[table38]

I always check tickets collected from a machine due to storis of missing tickets or the dreaded one that gets stuck up against the side.

Mistakes do happen, like this one I'd booked on line and collected from a TVM

 

[jon0844]

True, I hadn't thought of that scenario.

How do we solve these problems to prevent innocent customers from being penalised, whilst avoiding making the "man on the platform said it was valid" argument easier? IIRC, new ticket stock has a space for endorsements to be added.

There was a lady yesterday that boarded, as it turns out along with an RPI, at Potters Bar on a semi-fast to King's Cross (which was late and arrived at about the time you'd expect the all-station service to Moorgate to arrive).

She asked another passenger if the train was stopping at New Barnet and discovered, as the doors locked, that it was next stop Finsbury Park.

Shortly after the train was moving the RPI started his checks, and took about a minute looking at her ticket before saying 'This train doesn't stop at New Barnet' - presumably having missed the conversation and her trying to get off.

She said she'd boarded in error and would need to come back, so he said okay and gave her the ticket back.

But he didn't endorse the ticket, so goodness knows what fun and games she had when she got off at Finsbury Park and tried to change platform passing through two gatelines.

All I know is that she was talking to one of the staff as we departed.

 

[table38]

Another for instance, I have collected advance tickets for a future trip from Portsmouth to Crewe in January, changing at Winchester and Birmingham International.

The actual ticket has "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS" emblazoned across the top - but there is no reservation coupon for the SWT Portsmouth to Winchester leg.

 

[maniacmartin]

Another for instance, I have collected advance tickets for a future trip from Portsmouth to Crewe in January, changing at Winchester and Birmingham International.

The actual ticket has "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS" emblazoned across the top - but there is no reservation coupon for the SWT Portsmouth to Winchester leg.

That's the normal behaviour. For unreservable legs, you should still be in posession of the the reservation coupons for the other legs, which will show the times of the trains you are connecting with

 

[table38]

That's the normal behaviour. For unreservable legs, you should still be in posession of the the reservation coupons for the other legs, which will show the times of the trains you are connecting with

I know that, but that's not what the ticket says!

What if I end up having an encounter with a poorly trained RPI who doesn't know that... can I say "someone on the platform RailUK forums said it's OK" ?

Someone will be along in a minute to say there isn't room to print "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS EXCEPT WHEN THERE ISN'T A RESERVATION"

 

[maniacmartin]

Yes, it's a mess. However the reservation(s) will say '1 of 2' or whatever, so you can prove there are none missing.

 

[bb21]

I know that, but that's not what the ticket says!

What if I end up having an encounter with a poorly trained RPI who doesn't know that... can I say "someone on the platform RailUK forums said it's OK" ?

Then you will have a successful appeal/be able to successfully defend your case in court with ease.

 

[34D]

I think posters in this thread seem unable to grasp that consumer advice columns will always act in the interests of the consumer, whereas we on this forum do not (for good reason).

 

[Deerfold]

I think posters in this thread seem unable to grasp that consumer advice columns will always act in the interests of the consumer, whereas we on this forum do not (for good reason).

However I'm sure the Guardian gets more letters than it can use.
It's not clear why they'd persue a case where it is less clear the passenger is in the right.

 

[PG]

However I'm sure the Guardian gets more letters than it can use.
It's not clear why they'd persue a case where it is less clear the passenger is in the right.

Maybe they just pick which ones they print out of a tombola

 

[jon0844]

[cynic mode]Yeah, I'm sure they're picked at random as against someone in the office picking based on their own prejudices against a company (perhaps an unhappy commuter). Given The Guardian is based at King's Cross, FCC would be used by rather a lot of journalists based there![/cynic mode]

 

[Tibbs]

Maybe they just pick which ones they print out of a tombola

They'll pick the one that will interest their readers the most, and thus increase sales & profit.

 

[poshfan]

Another for instance, I have collected advance tickets for a future trip from Portsmouth to Crewe in January, changing at Winchester and Birmingham International.

The actual ticket has "VALID ONLY WITH RESERVATIONS" emblazoned across the top - but there is no reservation coupon for the SWT Portsmouth to Winchester leg.

Another anomaly with the advance tickets, you are supposed to keep both the travel ticket and seat reservation with you at all times, since they are only valid together, however it's not possible to comply with that requirement if you booked for two (or more) as you generally get a travel ticket for each person but just one combined seat reservation ticket. So if someone wants to go the buffet for example, only one person will have the seat ticket with them, meaning the other person technically has an invalid ticket for a while, and will have to convince the conductor if they get ticket checked in the meantime.

 

[jon0844]

I am sure most staff wouldn't be too hard to convince and would just wait (or come back later) if they weren't entirely convinced.

 

[Tetchytyke]

However I'm sure the Guardian gets more letters than it can use.
It's not clear why they'd persue a case where it is less clear the passenger is in the right.

The Guardian is based behind Kings Cross.

First Capital Connect are well regarded as the absolute worst TOC in terms of punctuality and customer service.

I'm sure someone else will be able to link these two tantalising facts together to understand why the paper would choose this subject to increase clicks on their website.

 

[jon0844]

First Capital Connect are well regarded as the absolute worst TOC in terms of punctuality and customer service.

Really? I know there have been a few spells of problems on the ECML, but FCC GN users get a pretty decent service. TL maybe a bit less, but it's a building site and most faults aren't down to FCC, or if they're down to faulty trains then it's something to do with having virtually no spares.

And customer service? I've never had any problems, although it can sometimes help to know who to contact and how to word things.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Depends on which part of the GN one uses. The Cambridge Flyer usually does well, the GN inner-urbans are a disaster zone. Memories of the TL driver shortage, and the recent reprise on the Fens part of the GN, are also recent.

As for customer service, I'll just mention the words "Saint" and "Albans".

I know how to write complaint letters, it is my job after all, and that part of it hasn't been too bad when I've had need to, although my letters have been delay repay really. Although most of the responses are the stock responses you get blaming everyone else.

 

[jon0844]

The St Albans ticket situation is indeed something that FCC has been quite 'enterprising' when using the truth. Likewise, FCC now preferring not to issue PFs if they can go after a prosecution and a three figure out of court settlement. And a few other bugbears.

However, for most situations I think they do things well. They manage Delay Repay well (or did; I've not claimed for some time) and they've also instigated a number of measures that should be making a real difference during disruption - following many complaints, including from myself, on their forums over the years.. namely only showing confirmed services during disruption to stop those 'on time' trains that don't exist showing for ages and then disappearing.

Sadly, most delays are outside of the control of FCC, EC, HT and GC. As such, it's hard to lay the blame at the TOC.

 

[Squaddie]

There was another rail-related complaint in Saturday's Guardian.

I was booked on a 7am East Coast train from London King's Cross to York. Due to the unclear information at the station I got on the first train I could see going to York – the 7.08.

The inspector on the train told me I was on the wrong train and said that I would have to either pay £131.50 for a single, or speak with British Transport Police. Under this threat I paid the extra money. I'd already paid £82 for my return tickets two weeks previously. This is extortionate.

East Coast has said its position is it won't give me a refund despite me providing proof that I arrived at Kings Cross Station at 06.18.

This makes almost no sense to me, and the comments beneath the article quite rightly give the passenger a rather hard time.

Link to article and comments

 

[jon0844]

Wow, you can always rely on The Guardian to see hundreds of comments pro or anti nationalisation, as if there's even any relevance.

As if advanced tickets never existed under BR, or never would exist if re-nationalised.. a world where we'd see cheap tickets sold but with total flexibility if people decided to get another train instead.

 

[duncanp]

There are several departure boards at Kings Cross, all of which have very clear information on them, including the departure time of the train, and the stations at which the train calls.

In addition there are audible announcements when the platform is first posted, and there are always plenty of staff around, especially those on the concourse at the very prominent information desk, and those in the ticket office.

So if the person in question arrived at Kings Cross at 06:18 for the 07:00 train, he/she would have had ample time to find the correct train and platform.

This sounds rather like the other thread in this section, where someone boarded an FCC train, and was so engrossed in the Guardian crossword that "...he didn't notice that he was sitting in the first class section of the train......."

Is there something about Guardian readers?

 

[jon0844]

The information at King's Cross is second to none. Unless you're near to that awful woman telling you to use the elevator, you'll be able to hear announcements perfectly clear just about everywhere within the station and even outside.

They invested in some very good audio equipment to eradicate deadspots and counter echos, so there's no bloody way you could miss your train being announced unless you turned up late. And of course the screens are super clear too, of which there are loads. What's more, it's easy to find the platform compared to some big stations.

But, let's not jump to conclusions that the person on the 0708 train may have actually turned up too late for his 0700 train...

 

[duncanp]

But, let's not jump to conclusions that the person on the 0708 train may have actually turned up too late for his 0700 train...

The article in the Guardian says that the person actually arrived at Kings Cross at 06:18 in order to catch the 07:00 train.

Perhaps he or she was, like the person on the FCC train in the other thread on this forum, too engrossed in the crossword to notice that the train had left. Or perhaps they went to St Pancras by mistake. (This does happen the other way round - I was at Kings Cross once and someone asked me which platform the Eurostar left from, and also a train to Nottingham)

Or perhaps they went to Platform 9 and 3/4 and wondered why they couldn't see the Hogwarts Express.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I can well believe the second letter, truth be told. I've been waiting since August for compensatory tickets relating to a train journey I took at the beginning of May that arrived in Newcastle over three hours late. EastCoast are good at so many things, but sorting things out when they go wrong is not one of them.

There are several departure boards at Kings Cross, all of which have very clear information on them, including the departure time of the train, and the stations at which the train calls.

In addition there are audible announcements when the platform is first posted, and there are always plenty of staff around, especially those on the concourse at the very prominent information desk, and those in the ticket office.

Hmm. I wouldn't say the information at Kings Cross is particularly good, especially Muffly Marge on the PA- assuming you can hear her over that bloody hologram.

I'd say that the passenger actually misread the boards, given there is a 0700 to Edinburgh and then an 0708 to York, and given that the intermediate station listings on those boards are not that big. It's easy enough to do- it's not like EastCoast don't have form at changing the times of trains at short notice (sorry, "implement an emergency timetable")- and the penalty shouldn't be so big. Especially given the passenger got on the all-shacks train rather than the fast one.

As for staff, I have to say that they are very thin on the ground early in the morning or later on at night. By 2100, when I'm normally meeting my partner off her train, the barriers are wide open and the only staff around seem to be the ISS cleaning staff.

This remains the problem with advance fares, the ones that ATOC tell us are amazing because they're so cheap (yeah right). Make a teeny tiny mistake and you've paid seventy notes for a worthless bit of shiny orange plastic.

 

[duncanp]

I pass through Kings Cross every day on the way to work, usually at about 06:45.

So I often hear the announcements for the 07:00 and 07:08 trains. They seem clear enough to me, and the departure boards are clear and legible.

It may well be the case that the passenger misread the departure boards and got on the 07:08, thinking that it was the delayed 07:00. However that is hardly East Coast's fault.

In any case, there must have been other people who managed to find their way on to the 07:00 train, including some who boarded in London and alighted at York.

 

[jon0844]

There's even a board that shows the next train to <place> and the platform, although only on the right hand set of screens. That would have shown the 0700 stopping at York ahead of the 0708 at York.

If you have an advanced ticket, you'll be booked on a train leaving at a specific time. Most people would know that a delayed train will still be referred to by its original departure time - and that the destination might not be the station you're going to if it stops on the way.

I really don't know what the industry can do beyond that.

Well, perhaps EC could set up a text alert system that sends a text to say a booked train is now boarding, and what platform it is. Probably wouldn't be that hard to set up either. You could even send an SMS reminder xx hours/days before departure along with a 'we look forward to your custom'. And charge 10p or something extra at the time of booking.

But even then people would claim not to have got the text.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

As a guess, if you had someone at Kings Cross more used to airports, perhaps he didn't understand that trains serve multiple destinations, thus he only looked for trains terminating at York.