FCC Notice of intention to prosecute

[userage]

Letter basically starts off

'on Wednesday 3rd of April at 12:40. your details were taken by a Revenue Protection Inspector at SUTTON Station

This letter is to inform you of our intention to take this case to court... The enclosed form provides you with an opportunity to tell us what happened (paraphrasing here but I'm sure you've heard of the letter)'

So anyway, what happened was I was arriving back from an Internship interview from West Bromley, but instead of getting the normal Victoria train I got the express one (I probably only go on train like twice a year at most, I have no clue on my way around, the ticket doesn't even say the platform my train is on ), I obviously realized that the train went past my ticket stop (ST HELIER) but obviously nothing I could do then, so once at Victoria, I asked one of the workers for which train goes to ST HELIER, he directed me to one and that train did not actually stop at ST HELIER :/, It did however go to SUTTON which is relatively close to where I live so I figured I'll just get off there instead to save myself some greif but apparently you can't do that with the Train and once I tried my ticket it gave me the red beep so I assumed my ticket was only valid for ST HELIER so I decided to just get the train to ST HELIER, but was stopped by an inspector.

I explained what happened to the inspector and what not, he took down my details, asked if I could pay for a ticket, I told him yes but he said he won't make me pay and just generally just no action will be taken but he has to take a note of it happening. So he just let me off at SUTTON since I told him I can get a bus from there to my house and there was no real need to go to ST HELIER, and thats the last I heard of it till now.

So, what am I to do here? They have some pretty scary statements on the letter about fines up to £1000, prison sentences etc. Being 18, this is really not a nice thing to hear considering I'm 2 months from going Uni.

What am I suppose to write back? Am I going to get fined? The Inspector told me it would be the last of it and it was no problem since it was a genuine mistake and he didn't make me pay for a ticket or anything.

I'm sure this will go nowhere near a sentence, but a quick Google search tells me they will probably still give me a fines of somewhere around £200? I can't really afford that, and it doesn't really seem fair, I mean I had no intention of breaking the rules I just simply didn't want to be led on the wrong train again.

Thanks in advance,

edit: on the enclosed letter it says under offence, 'Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel' - This is simply untrue, as I had a valid ticket, can I dispute against this?

Also sorry I didn't read the sticky before I posted.

 

[userage]

Do you think there is no chance of disputing it?

If they are using the offence, 'Entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel', then its clearly not right for them to try put a fine on me

 

[bb21]

Hi and welcome.

First things first, what ticket did you use?

Secondly, where did you start your journey? Bromley South is my guess but is that correct?

 

[userage]

Hi and thank you,

I bought the ticket online from The Train Line, I think it was one of those day return cards?

Yes you are right, it was from South Bromley not West as I stated above

 

[bb21]

Hi and thank you,

I bought the ticket online from The Train Line, I think it was one of those day return cards?

Yes you are right, it was from South Bromley not West as I stated above

Do you mind being a bit more specific with that? What was the destination on the ticket? What was printed under Route? Fare Type? Does it have any Railcard discount applied? Price?

Sorry about all the questions but unless we are in possession of all the facts, we can't give you accurate advice.

 

[userage]

To the best of my memory it just stated South Bromley to ST Helier via any route (or something to that effect), I'm not too familiar with train tickets, what do you mean by fare type? There was no discount applied and price was £6 I think?

Sorry for such a late reply

 

[bb21]

There is no Any Permitted fare between Bromley South and St Helier. The routeing on the ticket would either have been LONDON NOT UND or NOT VIA LONDON.

If you purchased it via The Train Line, do you mind having a look at your confirmation email, which should have all the details I asked in?

 

[MikeWh]

Hi and welcome. There are two basic fares between Bromley South and St Helier, the expensive one is routed "LONDON NOT UND" while the cheap one which you probably had is routed "NOT VIA LONDON". The latter one is supposed to be used to change at somewhere like Herne Hill.

You say you got on the wrong train from Bromley South which went fast to Victoria. Presumably the staff at Victoria just put you on the next train to Sutton as there are no direct services to St Helier from Victoria. Once that train had stopped at Mitcham Junction you were then back on a valid route and should not have had any further issues.

Please come back and confirm any other details that I've missed, including as much detail of the conversation at Sutton as possible. Unless you've missed something glaring then I think there may be a case.

The technical stuff. Bromley South is in zone 5, Sutton is in zone 5 and Herne Hill is in zone 3. This means that the fare from Bromley South to Sutton is the same as the fare from Bromley South to St Helier even though St Helier is in zone 4. Thus Sutton is an appropriate routeing point for St Helier and your ticket is valid via there. Bromley South is a routeing point and the other routeing point for St Helier is Wimbledon which is also valid.

 

[userage]

Sorry bb21 your correct, I lost the email but I just realized I can check the booking through the website and it was NOT VIA LONDON. Ticket says ADULT FULL FARE is that what you mean by type of fare?

Hi Mike,

Your correct it was NOT VIA LONDON, and I was suppose to change at Herne Hill. They did put me on a train to Sutton although I thought it was going to ST Helier which was what I asked for so I guess he assumed I knew I had to change train.

In Sutton, he just took me to the side and asked where I came from, checked my ticket, asked how I got on the train, I told him I thought it would stop at ST Helier but it didn't, he asked why I got off at Sutton (because he assumed I got off to go shopping there), but I simply told him I thought I could get off there and I didn't know the ticket would become invalid by doing so. He asked me if I could pay for a ticket, though he said he won't make me pay, I told him I could pay for one. He said I won't pay a fine, he just had to make a record of it. Seemed like the standard procedure stuff he was asking for the most of it. I more or less just told him it was a mistake and because I live close to Sutton I thought it would just be easier to get off there and that I had no idea that it didn't actually work like that and that you had to get off at only the station on the ticket, he asked if I wanted to go to ST Helier I told him leaving at Sutton was fine and he simply just opened the gates for me and that was that. I can't really think of anything significant I missed, he did tell me about how he would have just not taken note if it was the same zone but because it wasn't he was going to but I guess that's not really relevant?

I understand what you mean about the technical stuff, but since I tried to exit at Sutton does that have any impact on it?

Thanks for all the help by the way

 

[bb21]

Sorry bb21 your correct, I lost the email but I just realized I can check the booking through the website and it was NOT VIA LONDON. Ticket says ADULT FULL FARE is that what you mean by type of fare?

That's fine. I assume that you paid £3.30 for a single ticket or £5.80 for a return ticket?

If that is the case, then you can't possibly be prosecuted, or the case will be laughed out of court. I have checked relevant documents, and as MikeWh has said, you are perfectly valid at Sutton, whether it was your intention to finish your journey there or not.

 

[userage]

It was £5.80 for a return as you stated.

That's great to hear, so shall I just write back stating they have made a mistake? Obviously I'll also explain why I tried to exit at Sutton. Also they won't mind if I attach a typed out letter will they? My handwriting is quite poor haha.

Thank you for all the help once again, I really appreciate it.

 

[reb0118]

How about the mistake of originally travelling via London on a ticket routed not via London? Do you think FCC would be gunning for the OP over this?

 

[yorkie]

How about the mistake of originally travelling via London on a ticket routed not via London? Do you think FCC would be gunning for the OP over this?

If a passenger has a Not via London ticket and travels via London, the correct action is to charge an excess fare of half the difference (for a return ticket) between the fare paid and the appropriate fare via London. This is in accordance with the NRCoC and The Manual.

 

[bb21]

How about the mistake of originally travelling via London on a ticket routed not via London? Do you think FCC would be gunning for the OP over this?

If they wish to pursue the matter down that line, then the correct course of action is to charge the OP an excess to the LONDON NOT UND fare as he is technically off-route.

This is ignoring the fact that he had permission from staff at Victoria.

A Penalty Fare would be incorrect and prosecution would be ridiculous without an opportunity to pay the excess being offered.

 

[userage]

So am I in the clear here? Paying the excess ticket fare is understandable and I see no problem with that, but I obviously don't want this to go to court and end up with me having to pay a lot.

Any advice on what I should write in the response letter?

 

[MikeWh]

So am I in the clear here? Paying the excess ticket fare is understandable and I see no problem with that, but I obviously don't want this to go to court and end up with me having to pay a lot.

Any advice on what I should write in the response letter?

Basically, yes. They are claiming that your ticket was not valid at Sutton, but it was. Your detour via Victoria is an unfortunate complication, but as a member of staff put you on a train to Sutton and didn't take any details or ask for any money, it is clear that they believed it was an accident that had cost you enough in time already. A ticket from Victoria to St Helier is not valid via Sutton which may be the cause of the confusion, but isn't an excuse.

In your response I would explain clearly that the ticket you held was valid at Sutton because Sutton is an appropriate routeing point for a Bromley South to St Helier ticket. Please be careful to get the station names right because it won't help you if you say South Bromley rather than Bromley South. To be honest I would not mention your detour via Victoria because it is irrelevant to the issue. They are simply claiming that your ticket was not valid for travel at Sutton station. Once you have written a response, feel free to PM it to me and I will proof read it, taking comments from some other knowledgeable people.

Finally, I would strongly recommend getting an Oyster card if you use public transport around London. The fares are almost always cheaper than getting a paper ticket, and it is a lot easier to travel via any route within the Oyster system without worrying whether you are valid. As long as you touch in at the start and out at the end within the maximum time allowed for your journey, the system will calculate the appropriate fare for that journey regardless of the route taken. As a simple example travelling from Victoria to St Helier is completely valid via Sutton on Oyster, and you would only be charged more if you exited at Sutton.

 

[Tom C]

On the Wimbledon Loop the only restriction that would not allow you to go one way or the other is zonal (i.e no zone 5 going via Sutton) or route WIMBLEDON which was on a handful of tickets and clearly not in the this case.

As has been stated the issue is the NOT LONDON part which is an excess fare issue which South Eastern have chosen not to deal with. Once on a train from Victoria to Sutton, your ticket is perfectly valid as you have permission for the London element and you can travel to St Helier changing at Sutton.

I cannot comment on the prosecution for reasons which many will understand but your ticket was valid at Sutton.

 

[userage]

Alright thanks, I'll send you a draft of the letter tomorrow if that's okay, its getting a bit late now and I have to get up early. I actually do have an Oyster card, I don't know why I chose to use paper tickets instead.

 

[bb21]

You don't need to do it straight away, but don't leave the matter hanging around. At least you can lie there today without having to worry about going to court.