FCC - Is it really the WORST rail operator

[HST BB]

Hi everyone, this is my first thread.

I haven't seen any threads discussed about this topic and I apologise in advanced if it has.

Is FCC really the WORST rail operator in the country.

FCC has mainly been criticized on how it ran it's Thameslink services, is Thameslink services really hard to operate. What do you think, should FCC lose their franchise or should it be given a chance.

 

[Voyager 2093]

I personally think that First Capital Connect need more government funding. To fund new trains ect. Instead of having to sub lease Trains from Southern. It's really inconvenient. In addition to this any operator trying to operate the Thameslink Route will have a hard job just as Govia/Keolis did with Thameslink. First of all the passenger frequency and the sheer length of the line.

I think First should be given another chance given how well they operate FGW. If Virgin got another chance then why shouldn't FCC.

As for the GN Lines. I can't speak on their behalf and comment on their reliability due to the fact I never travel on them, however I think a huge mistake was made merging the TL and GN lines into one operator. It's just too much.

That's my view - anyone beg to differ?

 

[HST BB]

You make a good point, merging GN and TL was a mistake as it can be handful, operating services not just GN and TL but along the MML and ECML and not to mention the Thameslink Programme is delayed by a year.

 

[Aictos]

I shouldn't really be commenting as my views will probably come across as bias but I do believe in second chances and FCC are investing a great deal of money to further improve the service they deliver.

Stuff like a new website, improvements to the CIS and PA system, a better and more reliable CIS system, Roaming Microphones that actually work and that's just a quick look.

So my view is First should not be stripped of the Greater Thameslink/Great Northern franchise as they are certainly putting in the much needed investment, look at FGW when everyone was baying for their blood and now look at them, just look at the recent awards they're getting.

There are far worse companies out there both in transport and non transport based but I don't need to discuss them.

 

[Greenback]

No it isn't the worst. Simples!

 

[Geezertronic]

No it isn't the worst. Simples!

Not that I have a view either way, but what TOC is in your opinion?

 

[Greenback]

Arriva Cross Country, due mainly to their recent cancellation problems, the way they treat their staff, the ridiculously high fares where they own the pricing flows, and their awful on board service.

Mind you, I quite like their Voyagers! (waits for public lynching...)

 

[156499]

-----------> MY OPINION <------------ would probably be Cross Country for their short trains and poor first class, the very reliable reservation systems *sarcasm*

 

[Greenback]

I forgot to mention the reservations!

 

[oliverj8]

No it isn't, in my opinion it would either be Cross Country for previously mentioned reasons or Grand Central because they're trains are/were unreliable and I find them very uncomfortable to travel on. I think they are only popular because the are the only operator with Valenta HSTs, they've been around for more than 30 years so why have enthusiasts suddenly started 'bashing' them?

Sorry to be negative but it is just my opinion.

 

[TGV]

XC went down the pan when they swapped 6 or 8 carriage trains (loco hauled or HST) for 4 or 5 carriage DMU's that are noisy, stink, and cramped inside. OK they're a bit faster, but hey.

To play Devil's advocate though - they do have a huge and complicated route structure with all kinds of chances for delays over long distances that other operators won't have to deal with.

But on topic - FCC - I've not used the Thameslink service much, but the once or twice I have it's been fine. FCC's great northern services to PBO and Cambridge are fantastic. One of the best I've ever used.

 

[Oswyntail]

I think the question posed is essentially meaningless. No other TOC operates those services under those conditions, so we cannot really compare like with like. With all TOCs there are may well be things they have done well, and things that have gone horribly wrong. And, as TGVs post implies, a TOC can appear splendid to the infrequent user but appalling to a regular customer. I have (I think!) travelled on all TOCs in my time, and I have my favourites (come back GNER) but that is all I can say. I suspect that is all anyone can say.

 

[Tom B]

A cynic might suggest that FCC gets bad press owing to the number of London-based politicians, journalists etc who likely use it.

 

[Ticket Man]

Id say FCC is the worst. Although I haven't had any experience with XC (although i have heard the stories), my experience with FCC has been a bit of a disaster.
I've depended on them for about a year to get me across London to get to work and they a re constantly letting me down. If its not the fiasco with the service relying on drivers doing overtime to run, they are constantly late coming up from Brighton, their poor gate line staff seem to be less informed than the clueless passengers and first class on the 319's is a long running joke. The thing that really grinds my gears is the endless amount of automated apologies they send down the wire at STP, talk about rubbing salt in the season holders wounds
Weekend engineering I can forgive as they don't have much choice but even when they have an open road they can seem to run a train down it.

They were actually doing so bad for me that I now cycle across London, I'd rather take my chances with the traffic than die of old age waiting for an FCC.

 

[Aictos]

I can't see why Grand Central's are uncomfortable, the seating is comfortable, not to mention roomy for the legroom.
Is there any reason why you feel they're comfortable?

As to Cross Country, when the Voyagers were first planned they were supposed to be slightly longer then they are with the idea of a fast frequent service getting passengers from A to B.

Sadly though, they ought to have waited and gone for 9 car 222s which wouldn't have half the problems with overcrowding as some of the 4 or 5 car sets currently do.

 

[oliverj8]

I can't see why Grand Central's are uncomfortable, the seating is comfortable, not to mention roomy for the legroom.
Is there any reason why you feel they're comfortable?

Its just the 180s I find uncomfortable, the Kings X to York especially because it is a long non-stop journey, I don't think they are well suited to do that. But I still don't understand why people are making a fuss about the valentas now when they've had over 30 years to do that.

 

[87015]

Its just the 180s I find uncomfortable, the Kings X to York especially because it is a long non-stop journey, I don't think they are well suited to do that. But I still don't understand why people are making a fuss about the valentas now when they've had over 30 years to do that.

Has everyone who is fussing over Valenta's been alive, let alone old enough to go out nedding up and down the ECML, for over 30 years to do so?

With few exceptions, the TOCs are much of a muchness and all in it for every last penny, which leads to a pretty poor service all round.

 

[WatcherZero]

I dont know if I consider any particularly worse than any other, more that some are better than others.

As to FCC I believe most of its troubles were out of its power to address and its being blamed for stuff thats not its fault.

 

[jon0844]

If you use FCC on the Great Northern side, I can't imagine that you could have much to complain about. It has a pretty reliable fleet of trains, and most problems stem from signalling or overhead line problems - two things outside of its control. In the last few weeks there have been a fair few signal problems delaying trains here and there (I've had an SMS at least once a day telling me of problems, although they're quickly resolved) but there also seems to be a lot of Network Rail maintenance going on, but even then the service has been running well. The timetable changes and new rolling stock seems to ensure people can get seats quite easy now (of course, many choose to stand voluntarily).

If you use FCC on the Thameslink side, it seems that everyone has major issues. The 'core' seems to be the key problem, coupled with rolling stock issues (especially the new ones - unless they're now okay?) that are on trains FCC didn't order. They're effectively borrowing trains for another operator, until they get their own fleet of trains.

The main problem for FCC, on the TL side mostly, was before Christmas when the drivers had their dispute. FCC handled that badly, but I think the compensation they've given to passengers was actually very generous (and they even went even further after people whinged!). They've had a lot of changes of staff recently and there seems to be signs that they're going to invest in a lot of things to improve information and comfort.

On the GN side, they're doing lots of little tweaks at stations (more screens, anti-slip covering on exposed steps etc). The staff are mostly friendly, informative and keen - with the odd exception (see separate thread) but you can't demand a company loses a franchise over a few bad apples - you simply hope they'll deal with those issues. I have no idea what it's like on the TL side most of the time, but FCC still runs both 'branches' quite differently don't they? I don't think it's as easy as simply standardising everything either?

A good TOC is one that can deal with things when they go wrong, because things WILL go wrong. I think that FCC has been blamed for too many things outside of its control. People on the TL route moan about the old trains, but FCC can't just go and buy new ones. Nor can FCC change the timetable on its own, everything must have a business case and be approved for every timetable change.

Most of what I've said, as a regular FCC user, will no doubt ring true for every other TOC in the country.

It seems the Government is quite happy to allow the TOCs to take all the blame even when it knows they're not at fault. That's why TOCs aren't instantly kicked out, even when the Government want to appear tough.

 

[156499]

What I heard was if Virgin get the franchise again they are to lengthen voyagers and add a pantograph... sounds like a joke to me but lets wait and see

 

[tbtc]

Its just the 180s I find uncomfortable, the Kings X to York especially because it is a long non-stop journey, I don't think they are well suited to do that. But I still don't understand why people are making a fuss about the valentas now when they've had over 30 years to do that.

180s aren't suited to that kind of route, but the lack of wires through Hartlepool etc mean there's probably little better in the medium term, sadly

The Valentas one seems strange to me, its typical of the British public to suddenly act like something was fantastic just when its about to be scrapped - and railway enthusiasts seem a pretty conservative bunch at the best of times - much of the popularity for GC/ WMSR is because people like the "old" stock.

As for FCC, they've got rolling stock and engineering troubles through the "core" of the Thameslink section - both of which will be resolved in the next few years. The franchise is in transition, but things will get better. At least there are ambitions and money being spent (compared to some TOCs with little prospect of things improving)

 

[Greenback]

It seems the Government is quite happy to allow the TOCs to take all the blame even when it knows they're not at fault. That's why TOCs aren't instantly kicked out, even when the Government want to appear tough.

Ain't that the truth! The government likes being able to hide behind the TOC's - look at the FGW/DfT Bristol overcrowding episode as proof! Few people realised it was the DftT's specification that caused the problems! It's the same with ATW, people blame the TOC despite the fact that DfT drew up a no growth franchise!

 

[Lampshade]

No, CrossCountry is the worst by a (cross) country mile.

 

[Geezertronic]

What I heard was if Virgin get the franchise again they are to lengthen voyagers and add a pantograph... sounds like a joke to me but lets wait and see

That's the rumour, apparently Bombardier are investigating the possibility but I can't find anything to back that up.

 

[mikeg]

Probably not. In my experience Arriva Crosscountry is the worst... Because they have high peak fares, overcrowded trains, anal and confusing off peak day return restrictions - especially considering how much more restricted it is to the similarly named off peak return. I used to like them when they first got the franchise, the trains seemed on time a lot, there wasn't too much over crowding from SOT-MAN. But then they removed the shop, introduced ridiculous time restrictions on CDRs and hiked unregulated fares - and taking over flows from Chiltern and I believe Virgin specifically to do it. Not good. How they got the SOT-MAN flow when Virgin clearly operate more services and Northern operate a local stopping service and thus have a good understanding of the passenger numbers I'll never know.
I can't really comment on FCC as I never use them but First seem to do a relatively good job with Transpennine Express (albeit in partnership with Keolis) and First Great Western has improved in recent years.
On the other hand Arriva Trains Wales doesn't seem bad. Their process for refreshing the Coradias seems a bit poor (I went from MAN-Crewe and they'd replaced it with a 150, wouldn't like to travel all of the way to Cardiff on that, engine noise was terrible too). I like their policy on several routes of not offering anytime returns where off peak returns are unrestricted for starters.

 

[Daimler]

By no means - sure, they've had massive problems, but Cross Country are far worse.

Ridiculously expensive fares, uncomfortable, dirty, short trains...

 

[GNERman]

Grand Central because they're trains are/were unreliable and I find them very uncomfortable to travel on. I think they are only popular because the are the only operator with Valenta HSTs, they've been around for more than 30 years so why have enthusiasts suddenly started 'bashing' them?

Sorry to be negative but it is just my opinion.

Huh? Uncomfotable? Their HST fleet have been described as some of the most comfortable trains around! Reliability is a problem although kately there have been very few problems, and once the MTU program has finished it will get better still!

They are not only popular because of the Valenta HST's. Their staff are brilliant, customer service is brilliant, value for money is brilliant.

Also, people now realise that Valenta's are coming to an end and so that's why people are going on them...

Its just the 180s I find uncomfortable, the Kings X to York especially because it is a long non-stop journey, I don't think they are well suited to do that. But I still don't understand why people are making a fuss about the valentas now when they've had over 30 years to do that.

The 180's were built in a very different time where capacity was a major concern. When they get refurbed this will be changed.

As for HST's, there are only 5 left, so people want to get the last bashes done before the end...

 

[Ivo]

Arriva Cross Country, due mainly to their recent cancellation problems, the way they treat their staff, the ridiculously high fares where they own the pricing flows, and their awful on board service.

Mind you, I quite like their Voyagers! (waits for public lynching...)

Wahahaha! Greenback, my friend, you prove why you are among my favourite posters on this forum. [Except for the Voyager bit.]

(The pricing flows issue is a good point actually. Anyone who doesn't understand how splitting tickets works should find two XC stations, e.g. Bristol TM and B'ham New St, and change the through ticket to two tickets starting/ending at a major intermediate point - and then realise how it all works.)

As for FCC, as if the stock etc problems haven't hurt them enough, the persistent closure of the Snow Hill tunnel area is affecting their performance more than DafT seem to realise. Okay, there was that Sunday staffing issue, but otherwise what is so bad about them? Besides being operated by Worst Group?

 

[asylumxl]

Ok, regarding the original post, no I don't believe they're the worst TOC.

As someone living on the TL route since its creation, I can honestly say that FCC is actually pretty good, given the circumstances they run in.

The major issues are "our" new rolling stock, the current limitation of 8 car services, timetabling and extortionate fares.

We are basically doing long term testing for Southern, a TOC which has plenty of modern rolling stock already. We're just racking up miles for them, and this really isn't sensible on a route where there is little room for failures.

So we're stuck with the 319s a little longer. In all honesty I quite like them. Unfortunately, at peak times, and certain offpeak trains, 8 carriage 319s do not have the sheer capacity to handle the loadings. We have trains running full from Bedford, which then stop at 8 more stations, packed with commuters, with nobody alighting. This isn't really under their control, but it brings me to my next issue.

The folk at FCC seem to have a preoccupation with having trains calling at as many stations possible, including semi-fast services. Now, this is only my personal, uninformed opinion, but during peak hours where there's little town to town travel, i'd think it'd make sense to turn some of the lightly loaded slow services from say SAC city to fast trains to STP, or split the stations into groups and have fast services for each, relieving the loadings from further more northernly stations.

I've heard many people talk about the TL route being a cash cow, and i'm inclined to agree. If worked out pound per mile, it's significantly higher than other TOCs, then there's anomallies in fares, like Luton to Radlett being cheaper than to St Albans.

I don't think FCC is the worst TOC, OK, some of their London based gateline staff are utter ****s, but I believe the DfT is the main cause of our problems, as they are fully aware most of us have no alternative and are stuck with whatever they give us.

 

[Aictos]

With regards to the 8 cars comments, FCC are working as part of the Thameslink Programme to extend platforms so stations can take 12 car trains much like what is planned to be done on the GN from September this year.

When all is said and done, hopefully passengers and staff will notice a big difference in being able to get a seat and to see a reduction in overcrowding.

As to the 377s, instead of spending millions on new trains why not just spend the money on more 377s instead so eventually all 319s can be cascaded after being refurbished so we just have 377s on the Thameslink like Southern have 377s on the majority of their services, London Midland have 350s on the majority of their services and First Trans Pennine Express have the 185s on the majority of their services.

Surely that would present better value for money for all rather then spend money on new trains.

I'm interested to hear what the regular Thameslink users have to say if the proposed NXEMUs were cancelled in favour for 377s?