FCC & impartial retailing

[Mike395]

Basically, FCC ticket offices don't seem to understand what it means!

When travelling London - Bedford last night (one way) I asked at the St Pancras (FCC) ticket office for a Super Off Peak day return Bedford - London, intending to just use the return portion (its cheaper than a CDS London - Bedford). The ticket seller refused, saying such a ticket is only available from Bedford. In the end, I was in a hurry so just bought the CDS.

Now I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure ticket offices have to sell you whatever you ask for unless they state which tickets are available clearly on signage outside the office (in any case, after 10pm it's the only one open so I believe this is irrelevant here), so it's looking like poor training from FCC to their ticket office staff (not the first time either!)

I suppose I'm asking 2 questions here:

1) Are my assumptions correct?

2) If so, how can FCC be brought to account regarding their appalling ticket office staff training, at lest on the Thameslink route (not had any experiences on the GN route). I'm sure it must be into double figures by now how many times they've either refused or don't know how to sell me a reasonably simple ticket (refusals I've had in the recent past include PlusBus, as the guy didn't know what it was, and a Kent Rover, where I admit they might not be able to sell without instructions, but refused to follow my step by step guide for issuing one).

 

[David Goddard]

Ive had similar issues when wanting to make a journey covered by part of a through ticket. They should have sold you the product you asked for.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I get the feeling FCC's intentions are to provide such a poor ticket office service that people use alternative means and they can then justify closing them. I tried to renew a season ticket and ended up having to travel to St Pancras as staff at two other stations didn't know how to do it. They seem to have recently recruited a number of foreign nationals who's command of English is poor and geographical knowledge of the country non existent. A queue formed at one ticket office while the bookng clerk had a map out trying to find out where Feltham was - morning rush hour. I know plenty of courteous people with good customer service skills and an excellent geographical knowledge of the country who would like a job - why can't FCC find them ?

 

[asylumxl]

But at my local FCC station, there is also a lot of very helpful staff. I've never had a problem with them and anyone who was new and wasn't helpful hasn't seemed to stay around.

I've found Bedford staff to be hit and miss though.

 

[Greeby]

I get the feeling FCC's intentions are to provide such a poor ticket office service that people use alternative means and they can then justify closing them. I tried to renew a season ticket and ended up having to travel to St Pancras as staff at two other stations didn't know how to do it. They seem to have recently recruited a number of foreign nationals who's command of English is poor and geographical knowledge of the country non existent. A queue formed at one ticket office while the bookng clerk had a map out trying to find out where Feltham was - morning rush hour. I know plenty of courteous people with good customer service skills and an excellent geographical knowledge of the country who would like a job - why can't FCC find them ?

Have met plenty of British born and bred people in booking offices who meet that description.

 

[Greenback]

A lack of geographical knowledge in the ticket office is nothing new. When I began in 1998, a young lady who started at the same time thought Holyhead was on the ECML.

 

[Fred26]

Booking clerks in general are poorly trained. The skill of the clerk depends on two factors; firstly whether they are interested in the job, the railway and the geography and secondly who is mentoring them. If someone skilled is doing the mentoring, then a skilled clerk can be turned out. The worst case scenario is that the clerk has a poor mentor and is uninterested.

 

[Greenback]

Booking clerks in general are poorly trained. The skill of the clerk depends on two factors; firstly whether they are interested in the job, the railway and the geography and secondly who is mentoring them. If someone skilled is doing the mentoring, then a skilled clerk can be turned out. The worst case scenario is that the clerk has a poor mentor and is uninterested.

There are a lot of if's involved! I was lucky because I had a great interest in the railway and geography. I didn't have a particularly good mentor, but she was pretty interested and tried her best with rather limited knowledge.

Going back on subject, many of the older or long serving clerks (and supervisors) would not sell tickets from other stations under any circumstances. I knew a little of impartial retailing, and got fed up of having to point out to colleagues that I was correct to sell Pangbourne to London return tickets when requested, rather than Reading to London return and a Reading to Pangbourne single as most of the others did. It took a couple of years for this situation to be resolved!

As such, I am always disappointed when someone experiences difficulties like the OP's situation. It is a sahme that over a decade later the TOC's have not got to grips with providing the correct instructions to all station based retial staff. There is still too much reliance on passing on what is often incorrect information to new staff by word of mouth.

 

[radamfi]

I always carry a laptop around now so I almost never need to visit a ticket office to buy remote tickets.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Have met plenty of British born and bred people in booking offices who meet that description.

So why go abroad to recruit people who are useless at their job when we have plenty here ? I very much doubt PKP or most railway operators on the planet would employ people from another country to staff their ticket offices who had poor command of the language and no geographical knowledge of the country.

 

[radamfi]

So why go abroad to recruit people who are useless at their job when we have plenty here ? I very much doubt PKP or most railway operators on the planet would employ people from another country to staff their ticket offices who had poor command of the language and no geographical knowledge of the country.

I don't think they actually 'recruit from abroad'. I presume these members of staff are already based in the UK when they apply for their jobs. You certainly can't recruit from outside the EEA for such a relatively low skilled job that is not on the shortage occupations list.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Now I could be wrong here, but I'm fairly sure ticket offices have to sell you whatever you ask for unless they state which tickets are available clearly on signage outside the office (in any case, after 10pm it's the only one open so I believe this is irrelevant here), so it's looking like poor training from FCC to their ticket office staff (not the first time either!)

I suppose I'm asking 2 questions here:

1) Are my assumptions correct?

2) If so, how can FCC be brought to account regarding their appalling ticket office staff training, at lest on the Thameslink route (not had any experiences on the GN route). I'm sure it must be into double figures by now how many times they've either refused or don't know how to sell me a reasonably simple ticket (refusals I've had in the recent past include PlusBus, as the guy didn't know what it was, and a Kent Rover, where I admit they might not be able to sell without instructions, but refused to follow my step by step guide for issuing one).

They have to offer the cheapest through fare unless you ask for a specific ticket, so if you ask for a return ticket from Bedford to St Pancras they should offer the cheapest available return ticket (or single each way if cheaper).

If you ask for an Off-Peak return from Bedford to St Pancras, they no longer have to offer the cheapest fare and should sell the return to you (they should still make you aware of any restrictions).

Staff can't know every fare, but they should at least know where to look for them, it's not all that hard these days with only one manual to consult (compared to 9 or more in Aptis days).

I guess the first port of call is a complaint to Customer Relations, then, if not dealt with in a satisfactory way, to Passenger Focus, etc, etc.

 

[Carefree]

I yesterday encountered exactly the same issue as the original poster (Mike395). The clerk at St Pancras refused to sell me a Bedford-London super off peak return for £9.25 (with Network Card), insisting I must buy the London-Bedford single for £12.50.

The manager was called (by the clerk, not me), and he insisted that the ticket I had asked for could only be bought from Bedford station. I told him, calmly & politely but firmly, that it is a requirement of the regulations that his office must sell me any genuinely available ticket I ask for; and that if his office could not sell me this one, then it was the only ticket office in the UK that could not do so. I even went as far as to say that I can, and have, bought this ticket from Euston before, and that if he refused to sell me it, I would head down the road and do so again today.

It was then that the FCC manager said something interesting. He said that if I could buy this ticket from Euston, then he would have no problem with me using it. To my understanding, this confirms a senior member of FCC staff is refusing to sell a ticket that he knows to be valid, in contravention of the impartial retailing regulations.

In the end, I didn't even have to go as far as Euston to get the ticket I wanted: the EMT booking office next door (ie. within St Pancras) sold me one without any quibble at all.

Can anyone suggest to whom I should complain about what would appear to be a clear breach of the regulations by FCC.

 

[Clip]

Shocking behaviour that is especially by the booking office manager too - complain directly to FCC and passenger focus at the same time with the same letter - letting both parties know that you are contacting the other about this issue.


I take great umbridge with the statement that 'Booking clerks in general are poorly trained' that's tarring everyone with the same brush and some of us properly train our new recruits thoroughly for a period of time to get them up to a good standard. The problem arises when you cant watch over them all the time to ensure they are doing their job properly but also some things they get taught about they forget because they never get asked for that product.

Please dont make out that everyone is bad at their job - they are not.

 

[firespire]

I'm not sure if it is bad training, it just looks like a deliberate attempt to rip off people and force them to buy tickets with a 35% higher cost than the cheapest valid for the journey, even when asked for by the customer.

 

[radamfi]

Ideally, the clerk wouldn't need to be good at his job. The fare system should be so simple that virtually no training is required. In this example, the railway has failed in three ways. First of all, the fare system shouldn't be so crazy that it is cheaper to buy the ticket in the wrong direction. Secondly, he should be able to get the ticket from the machine but he can't. Thirdly, even though he has been forced to visit the ticket office, he still can't get the ticket he wants.

 

[barrykas]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, The Manual has the following to say on the matter, which FCC could use as a "defence" for not selling the requested ticket late at night:

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Mike395]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, The Manual has the following to say on the matter, which FCC could use as a "defence" for not selling the requested ticket late at night:Cheers,

Barry

I disagree - all that is saying is that a return portion cannot be used where the outward journey could not reasonably been completed on the grounds of time (e.g. using the return portion of a Bedford - Nottingham Off-Peak Return at 5am on the first day of validity)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I yesterday encountered exactly the same issue as the original poster (Mike395). The clerk at St Pancras refused to sell me a Bedford-London super off peak return for £9.25 (with Network Card), insisting I must buy the London-Bedford single for £12.50.

The manager was called (by the clerk, not me), and he insisted that the ticket I had asked for could only be bought from Bedford station. I told him, calmly & politely but firmly, that it is a requirement of the regulations that his office must sell me any genuinely available ticket I ask for; and that if his office could not sell me this one, then it was the only ticket office in the UK that could not do so. I even went as far as to say that I can, and have, bought this ticket from Euston before, and that if he refused to sell me it, I would head down the road and do so again today.

It was then that the FCC manager said something interesting. He said that if I could buy this ticket from Euston, then he would have no problem with me using it. To my understanding, this confirms a senior member of FCC staff is refusing to sell a ticket that he knows to be valid, in contravention of the impartial retailing regulations....

Firstly, a ticket office manager is little more than a grunt with minions (no offense) and not 'a senior member of FCC staff'.

Secondly, You should have just gone next door, bought the ticket there....

....In the end, I didn't even have to go as far as Euston to get the ticket I wanted: the EMT booking office next door (ie. within St Pancras) sold me one without any quibble at all....

.... good thinking, and then you should have gone back and waved it in his face (not literally). I jest of course, but it does make you wonder quite what the FCC people were thinking.

....Can anyone suggest to whom I should complain about what would appear to be a clear breach of the regulations by FCC.

FCC, then Passenger focus if not satisfied. Of course, too much complaining could be counter productive, i.e. they could get wind of what is happening and change the restrictions.

 

[Greenback]

There are lots of clerks who are good at their jobs. They tend to be interested in railways and ticketing, and motivated enough to keep up to date with changes, circulars and briefings.

These clerks will be greatly assisted by good training, but they may also be able to overcome poor training by an applying their intelligence and common sense.

Where we have problems is with the less conscientious staff, who do receive insufficient training, and are not interested in finding out. Where someone like that is also ina position of authority, it makes things worse.

I have met both clerks and managers myself who have had a poor grip on impertial retailing, and have not even realised it, being convinced that their understanding of the issues is correct, despite being wrong on many aspects of it.

One once stated that he could not sell a ticket from another station as it would mean the ticket office there would close if everyone did that. I almost passed out with the shock!

 

[LexyBoy]

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

So the return portion of a ticket is only valid if the outward has been used (or could have, it being impossible to tell if it was actually used)? This is the first I have heard of this.

The NRCoC states that the outward is only valid with the unused return portion, but AFAIAA there is nothing in the public domain that states that the reverse also holds.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I disagree - all that is saying is that a return portion cannot be used where the outward journey could not reasonably been completed on the grounds of time (e.g. using the return portion of a Bedford - Nottingham Off-Peak Return at 5am on the first day of validity)

The argument would be that the customer would not be able to complete any portion of the outbound portion on that day (e.g. all southbound trains had already departed). However, as it's not publicised I'd argue that it couldn't be enforced.

 

[bb21]

The argument would be that the customer would not be able to complete any portion of the outbound portion on that day (e.g. all southbound trains had already departed). However, as it's not publicised I'd argue that it couldn't be enforced.

Yes, I agree that this is unenforceable.

On a ticket that has BoJ restriction, if one tried to use such a ticket at an intermediate station when he/she couldn't have possibly started at the origin station as stated on the ticket then I agree that the ticket would not be valid.

There is nothing to stop someone using the return portion of a ticket only, whether there is BoJ restriction on the ticket or not.

 

[radamfi]

I suppose keeping the system complicated and not allowing TVMs to sell all tickets keeps clerks in work so simplification may be resisted by the unions. For example the Dutch system means that hardly anyone visit the ticket office and indeed there is a charge levied for doing so.

 

[transportphoto]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, The Manual has the following to say on the matter, which FCC could use as a "defence" for not selling the requested ticket late at night

You should refuse to accept the return portion of a return ticket if the date and time shown on the ticket indicate that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, taking into account any applicable general or break of journey restrictions.

Cheers,

Barry

Hi,

If i am interpreting this correctly, the term "the date and time shown on the ticket" could mean the printed date time on the bottom right of every ticket. If that time indicates that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, then the ticket should not be accepted as valid, no?

TP

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Hi,

If i am interpreting this correctly, the term "the date and time shown on the ticket" could mean the printed date time on the bottom right of every ticket. If that time indicates that the outward journey could not have been physically and legitimately completed, or part completed, then the ticket should not be accepted as valid, no?

TP

I don't believe so. It is quite possible that someone could travel from an unmanned station, meet no guards, arrive at the destination, pick up a child (or parcel, etc) from a waiting relative (or other person), pay the fare at that station and return to where they came.

 

[Mike395]

I don't believe so. It is quite possible that someone could travel from an unmanned station, meet no guards, arrive at the destination, pick up a child (or parcel, etc) from a waiting relative (or other person), pay the fare at that station and return to where they came.

In that case, surely that makes the restriction as interpreted by barrykas and LexyBoy even more unenforceable as a reason not to issue a ticket?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I can't think of a suitable reason to not issue a ticket in this case, even suggesting (or having the passenger confirm) that it was not possible, or there was no intendion to use the outward portion is on dubious ground.

There is nothing to say a passenger must use a ticket that they have purchased. My personal feeling is that the quote given by Barrykas is unenforceable.

 

[Carefree]

The excerpt from the manual mentioned by barrykas (whatever its true meaning) is irrelevant in my case at least: FCC's refusal to sell me this ticket occurred at 4pm on a Sunday.

 

[island]

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons, The Manual has the following to say on the matter, which FCC could use as a "defence" for not selling the requested ticket late at night:

Not trying to have a go at you, but in what publicly-available document does it say that customers can't throw away the outbound portion of their ticket straight after buying it? It's unenforceable per the usual reasoning.

Edit: Looks like several people have made the very same point!

 

[Mutant Lemming]

There are lots of clerks who are good at their jobs. They tend to be interested in railways and ticketing, and motivated enough to keep up to date with changes, circulars and briefings.

..and I am sure there are plenty of people currently seeking employment (from all corners of the globe) who fit that bill. So why aren't FCC employing them ?
Reminds me of that episode of Father Ted where Ted and Dougal got to represent Ireland in the Eurovision Song Contest.