FCC GN problems with departure boards

[jon0844]

Is the GN route trying to compete with TL by giving misinformation that makes it appear like you're running a shoddy service?

In months gone by, there have been some odd things in the morning.. including trains that don't exist. It's not even that they're added in like some sort of emergency timetable - they simply don't appear in any timetable and more importantly, don't arrive!

In more recent weeks they've been operating on a go-slow, such that all the announcements and warnings (stand well away from platform x...) are sometimes delayed by 30-60 seconds. It's odd for warnings to stand clear, even more frustrating for announcing the arrival of a train that is now leaving.

This morning, it seems they'd managed to get a number of services mixed up to Moorgate/King's Cross. There was an 0915 to Moorgate and an 0915 to King's Cross (the one I was on). My train arrived at FPK, and loads of people boarded the announced train to Moorgate. Obviously few people will realise a 317 won't go to Moorgate, but how would they know.

My train was supposedly on platform 2, except it wasn't.

More importantly, there was no 0915 to Moorgate. Except, staff could look up and see there was.. but it was delayed due to a fatality earlier on at Gordon Hill. They were then confused because it later appeared as having already passed. It was now at Highbury & Islington. It obviously wasn't.

So, a train then turns up - which was the 0923 that always follows the 0915. No announcement obviously; it's still waiting for the now delayed 0915!

As I boarded, I then heard the announcement for the 0923 to King's Cross. There isn't one! There is at 0924 though.

My question is; how can all of this go so wrong when the trains are actually running? Who's inputting all of this info? And what happened to that train that left Gordon Hill?

It's also the first time I've ever seen a train to King's Cross announced as Moorgate. Bet there were a lot of rather annoyed people alighting at King's Cross on that one!

 

[Jordy]

I noticed the problems with the announcements and the screens last week, its very odd! Some of the screens were just randomly going off and displaying the WAGN website address hock:

 

[Ivo]

Maybe they've been infected with a "West Anglia Great Northern Virus"

In case you didn't guess, I just invented that.

 

[jon0844]

The Wagn thing is when the screens lose their link 'to the outside world' completely; such that they presumably default to something hard coded in the display unit itself (you'd think they'd change this!).

I wonder if they've been turning them off at the point where they're giving 100% inaccurate information. It would probably be a good idea, if it stops people boarding the wrong train or waiting for a train that doesn't exist.

The dispatcher for platform 1/2 said their computers were wrong too - so there's something more to this problem than meets the eye.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

They were originally going to replace the TL side with GN's system. Now FCC are looking at retendering the whole thing.

 

[Aictos]

To the best of my knowledge, the GN consists of a Ditra system which is managed for FCC GN by Amey Datel in comparsion, the FCC TL runs off a Funkwerk system which bearing in mind I've yet to work with it is notorious bug ridden with countless problems as mackenzie_blu and other TL staff will no doubt state.

The system should have all the trains in the system and automatically deal with each train as per booked but there are times when the system gets confused, ie my xx20 terminator which forms the xx32 sometimes has the xx32 shown up as expected at xx52!

Or just doesn't display the train at all, sometimes the wrong platform is shown ie my 1553 is booked off platform 3 but the vast majority of the time as it's coming from the yard leaves from platform 1 but the screens will shown it as leaving from platform 3!

Hence manual announcements are made to ensure passengers do get onto the right platform to board the right train.

In times of disruption however, it can take time for the system to be reprogrammed with the amended timetable which can take roughly about a hour to do which is after FCC and NWR agree to what timetable will be run.

Some CIS screens when in default mode do incorrectly display the WAGN website for passengers to get information off which is a well known problem to the company, no doubt it will cost the company a large sum of money to recode the system to display the FCC website instead of the defunct WAGN one but that's nothing compared to how much FCC must have been spending on the various issues with the Funkwerk on the TL route!

I know WAGN used to have a LICC system at the main stations on the route but it got removed due to some overzealous members of staff who in times of disruption used to remove all trains from the system if they weren't calling at their station even if they were still running and calling at other stations which of course was not needed.

Still, the sooner the company gets one system for both routes the better - personally with regards to the GN, the main stations which are open 24/7 should take a leaf out of East Anglia's book and become Hub stations responsible for a group of stations within their group, also having the ability for the CIS manager to use any of the hub stations to use the LICC to manage the CIS screens.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Right, I can confirm there was no fatality at Gordon Hill today but rather a person was found lying in the cess with a head wound.
Emergency services attended and normal working resumed about 0830.

Just thought I correct one of the above statements.

 

[jon0844]

Wow, the computers at Finsbury Park really weren't giving accurate information today were they!!

It would appear the following trains exist in the morning

0914 to King's Cross (plat 2)
0915 to Moorgate (plat 1)
0918 to King's Cross (plat 1)
0923 to Moorgate (plat 1)
0922 to King's Cross (plat 2)

This morning it was two 0915s - one to Moorgate, one to King's Cross and two 0923s - one to Moorgate, one to King's Cross!

That also means the 0918 train that I was on actually left early! Lucky the signalling was correct, or the train might have been sent down to Drayton Park anyway!

 

[Aictos]

Well according to TRUST, the last two services to London tonight have been cancelled at 2310 and 2340 respective but it's been duplicated in TRUST which is why the error has probably occured, also could be a reason why the CIS screens are stating what they are at Finsbury Park.

The main problem though with the CIS on both route that it's a ranshackle of various systems ie on the GN you can find a mixture of VDU screens, Next Train Indicators and Summary of Departure screens with various bugs ie the imfamous WAGN issue to name just one but compared to the Funkwerk on the TL which is reportly to be terrible.

 

[jon0844]

I've never noticed these problems before a couple/few months ago though. Obviously, I'm not saying that they didn't exist - but I'd never seen anything like what I'm seeing now.

The Wagn problem seems to only be when the screens aren't working, but have power and display a preset message that should have been more generic (OR National Express should have been required to pay for the removal/changing of the text).

Has anything happened in the last few months that could be causing such errors, like duplicated train services, ghost trains, incorrect stopping patterns and totally wrong trains?

This is the sort of thing that will, quite rightly, cause passengers to start complaining. How silly will it be for people to moan about trains being late that don't even exist?! Not everyone will compare with a printed timetable (why should they?).

I feel sorry for the staff too who will get the brunt of this. At least the lady at Finsbury Park was very easy going and friendly - but she was being asked the same questions every few seconds from confused passengers.

 

[Aictos]

As a comparison, when DOR took over the InterCity East Coast franchise from National Express, anything relating to NX was removed overnight during the handover from the CIS screens to the announcements to the signage and posters around stations so see no reason why NX couldn't pay to have WAGN removed from the CIS screens and First pay out to have FCC put in.

 

[jopsuk]

There's still a GNER branded route map in Kings Cross- they didn't get everything!

The different and not always relaiable PIS systems are yet another example of the joys of having such a fractured system. Surely it would be better for everyone (especially passengers) if there was cooperation between all TOCs and Network Rail to develop a single system fully tested before deployment and rolled out across the entire network?

 

[jon0844]

On the basis that trains must have their branding put on as a removable livery, over the base colour (for example, the First Capital Connect wording/logo is stuck on over their colour scheme, ditto for the NX trains that had the diagonal strips and name removed without removing all the livery), I do wonder why Wagn was ever allowed to put the 'generic' text on to a display board as a link to its website. Had they won the new franchise in 2006, they'd have probably renamed anyway - so they were creating a new cost for themselves too.

They must have known they might not hold the franchise forever, and those screens will be installed for a long time. When they were asked what they should say, they should have had details for National Rail enquiries with that website address, not their own.

It's quite obvious that this has simply been forgotten about and I guess First has more things to worry about than chasing National Express to pay for changing the text.

 

[philjo]

The automated announcements on my train home (FCC 317) were throwing a wobbly tonight.
It kept announcing that we were approaching the station we had just left.
e.g. We left Welwyn Garden City & were approaching the viaduct when it announced that "we are now approaching Welwyn Garden City"
Anyone boarding at Stevenage could read "the next stop is Knebworth" on the on board screens - some people thought that they were on the wrong train!

 

[Aictos]

The automated announcements on my train home (FCC 317) were throwing a wobbly tonight.
It kept announcing that we were approaching the station we had just left.
e.g. We left Welwyn Garden City & were approaching the viaduct when it announced that "we are now approaoching Welwyn Garden City"
Anyone boarding at Stevenage could read "the next stop of Knebworth" on the on board screens - some people thought that they were on the wrong train!

The automated announcements are GPS guided so should be quite accurate but I've been on a 317 more then once with the same problem as you're describing when the 317 has lost the GPS signal.

I guess the drivers could easily turn off the CIS if need be if it's announcing incorrectly but I don't know the FCC policy on if drivers are advised to do that, make additional announcements or do nothing.

Still approaching Finsbury Park with a Cambridge bound service and hearing the 317 announce the Next station is Kings Cross where this train terminates is a tad worrying!

 

[tripleseis]

When I caught my train to New Barnet from Highbury and Islington last night none of the on-platform destination boards were displaying any next train information so I had to rely on the incoming train's destination blind. Luckily a GN "Welwyn G.C." pulled in first!

 

[jon0844]

The system on the 317 does use GPS and triggers at set co-ordinates. If the route is set wrong, it will announce as it obviously did tonight. Thus, you're hearing the announcement late because it's at the point it would be to approach the station the other way.

It's not that the route is set as going the other way, but rather that it still thinks it is doing the last one - again. At King's Cross, it will have started with the one saying we are now approaching... where this train terminates... thank you for travelling... etc.

Now the software should detect the point that the GPS shows it has gone back a station and reset.

A driver should disable it; it serves no purpose. Only at the end of the journey will it do the welcome bit with the safety announcement you needed at the start!

 

[jopsuk]

I've been on a 365 south of Cambridge heading for Kings Cross that was announcing stations as if we'd left Kings Lynn heading towards Cambridge. Most odd to have claims of stopping at Watlington around about the time we were passing through Foxton at speed.

 

[philjo]

On a couple of occasions a 365 announced that we were now arriving at Finsbury Park as we got to Potters Bar (northbound), but corrected itself for the rest of the journey.

I think the best one was whilst waiting at Hitchin one evening on a 317 - the announcement told everyone on board that the next stop would be Waterbeach (this service was due to terminate at either Letchworth or Cambridge - I forget which but it certainly wasn't going beyond Cambridge!)
I assume that the stopping pattern had not being programmed correctly.

There was a particular saturday evening service where the station screens/announcements at Stevenage always omitted Cambridge. It was a Kings Lynn service - the screens implied that it would run non-stop from Foxton to Waterbeach! This always caused some confusion on passengers wanting Cambridge. I think this error has been corrected in the current timetable.

 

[jon0844]

The 365 problem where it announced Potters Bar as Finsbury Park was solved some time ago. I never did find out exactly what caused it, but it only affected the audio. I'm pretty sure the screen was correct.

I don't know why, but the screens and audio seem to be two independent systems and don't always run in sync. I guess it was state of the art back in the early 90s, but hasn't really stood the test of time.

 

[swhite01]

Recently... the Welwyn North Down platform announces the next arrival as the service leaves and is off into the tunnels.....

 

[jon0844]

This morning, Hatfield was doing the delayed announcements.. EC train flies through platform 2, then the 'stand well away from platform 2' announcement starts after it goes off into the distance.

Ditto for when our train arrived. The announcement started just as the doors closed! Very useful

I'm guessing the problem is down to a delay between the train passing a certain point on the line and that data being forwarded on.

It needs to be fixed, if only for the sake of the safety messages on the fast lines.

(Another minor complaint; the 1047 train (FPK) to Moorgate is shown as 6-car. It isn't!

 

[Skimble19]

Try going to Biggleswade or Arlesey then, it's even worse there, as well as all the problems already mentioned above, Biggleswade now has a platform 59 and a platform 63, other boards are completely blank with just the clock on (which is often wrong), and of course the notorious www.wagn.co.uk has been up there for weeks now in various places around the station, however its now currently on every single board except for the one that is now saying Platform 63.. You have to laugh, altho it does get a bit tedious when it's been going on for so long..

 

[jon0844]

Does Biggleswade not have 63 plaforms then?

They've finally installed (but not turned on) a new screen on platform 3 at Hatfield; I wonder what that will say!

 

[Skimble19]

Last time I checked there was only 58..

 

[jon0844]

Those last minute platform alterations must be a real pain!

 

[jon0844]

All this week, stations along the ECML (maybe elsewhere?) have been suffering problems with the platform signs/announcers.

I was at Potters Bar this morning and it was some 40-45 seconds behind, resulting in the 'stand clear' messages long after a train came through.

In addition, at Finsbury Park - there was a very angry family who were caught out by more incorrect scheduled trains showing. I arrived on what would have been the 1041 service to King's Cross, on platform 2, to cross over for a train to Old Street.

The train I had got off was showing as the 1051. On platform 1, it was showing the 1041 to King's Cross - and then, after 45 seconds, it flashed up 'Alteration' and removed it to show the next service to Moorgate and the 1041 on platform 1. As a result, the train on platform 2 that this family expected to get was closing the doors and leaving.

Understandably they were somewhat miffed! Worse still, I think the 1051 was cancelled due to a train fault!

FCC said on its forum that they are aware of the problem. It is presumably a Network Rail problem but is anyone looking to fix it? And if so, when?

There are comments on here from February about the delays at various stations. I don't know how many are affected but it seems quite a serious problem - especially if it's doing it at places like Stevenage for EC services.

 

[Aictos]

All I know is the contract for the CIS systems is currently out to tender with the new contract starting in September.
As to the actual system, the Customer Services Director herself has stated that FCC will be heavily investing in the systems including PA, CIS and the website not to mention a whole lot more.

In short, it's going to get better but miracles don't happen overnight!

 

[thefab444]

Lets hope Ditra win the PA side of the contract, especially if it covers Thameslink as well. The Funkwerk system is awful.

 

[jon0844]

I personally have no problem with the current system, but there's a real problem with the 30-60 second delay which must be down to the way the information is passed from track to computer to screen.

It hasn't always been like that, so it must be possible to restore it to what it was ahead of a complete change.

Otherwise you may as well turn them all off. Announcing trains after they've already left is silly - as happened yesterday when I was at Potters Bar.

 

[Aictos]

I rather Atos Original win for three reasons:

1. They seem to be in favour with First having won that FGW contract.
2. It's more reliable as it takes the information from two feeds, TRUST and the TD feeds which Ditra doesn't.
3. It's good enough for Network Rail so ought to be good enough for us.

BUT there's another contender which I like to see which is ASL systems as they have the contract for the NCL, pretty cool system with zones which mean you can play announcements or make announcements to specific parts of the station.

I had fun making a live announcement to see how it works and it's impressive to say the least.