FCC fined £75k over "absolute shambles"

[Starmill]

...Delay Repay leaflets.

At least First Capital Connect actually HAVE Delay Repay leaflets - and display them and have staff hand them out.

I have always had to ask for one from Northern and others - and even then all ticket offices have for you is a general comments form.

 

[ainsworth74]

That would be becase Northern don't do Delay Repay...

 

[jon0844]

IIRC, posters were put up at some FCC stations advising that some trains had been modified to give more standing room, this being done by replacing 2+3 seating with 2+2 in order not to provide larger seats, but to give a wider aisle for more standing.

I wasn't aware of this. I'd love to know which trains have had these modifications and apologise for having doubted the claim.

What I do know is that one of the first class compartments on every 377/5 has been declassified to allow a bit more standard class seating (which is also 2+2).

 

[Starmill]

That would be becase Northern don't do Delay Repay...

Picky sods.

'There is a lack of clarity that the Customer Comments form is appropriate for use when making Passenger's Charter claims.' - that do it for you?

 

[142094]

Picky sods.

'There is a lack of clarity that the Customer Comments form is appropriate for use when making Passenger's Charter claims.' - that do it for you?

What he probably means is that there is a difference between Delay Repay and the scheme that Northern and some others operate - i.e. Delay Repay is far more generous than other schemes.

 

[bronzeonion]

We've had enough "DOO vs guards" arguments to last us a lifetime. But how far do you go, a guard in each 4-coach unit (so 3 on a 12-car train), or a guard at each pair of doors preventing people opening them? And how do you pay for all this, increased fares presumably...

No, one guard for that train would have been adequate, taking alot of the strain from the passengers off the driver to let the driver concentrate on fault finding and contacting the relevant people.

Regular updates over the PA simply to re assure people would stop alot of people from opening the doors and getting off.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If people were re-opening doors then, frankly, even a guard would have stood little to no chance of controlling these people.

It sounds like you'd need to scramble a lot of staff or BTP to manage things once people ignored what they were being told (and if they weren't told everything in this case, I refer more generally to the other incidents where people just got off).

Lack of information crops up in the news articles quite frequently, regular and informed PA's and then once that becomes unusable, regular walking up and down manually telling passengers what is going on would have kept the situation under control for a lot longer that what actually happened.

 

[Mojo]

After around 45 Min of the train failing loadshedding caused the public address system to stop functioning (source: RAIB report).

 

[Oswyntail]

How difficult would it have been to get a couple of "crowd soothers" on to the train once it was clear that there was going to be a long delay? BTP officers trained in the work? Or was it a case of "It's only going to be another 5 minutes"?

 

[Starmill]

What he probably means is that there is a difference between Delay Repay and the scheme that Northern and some others operate - i.e. Delay Repay is far more generous than other schemes.

I know. I was referring almost entirely to the availability of forms though! See what I meant about being picky?

 

[westv]

That would be becase Northern don't do Delay Repay...

They do but only after an hour or more delay.

 

[A-driver]

How difficult would it have been to get a couple of "crowd soothers" on to the train once it was clear that there was going to be a long delay? BTP officers trained in the work? Or was it a case of "It's only going to be another 5 minutes"?

How do you get them there? They were trying to get another train there which was having its own problems so, like the recent FGW incident, I highly doubt anyone planned for this to go in so long.

 

[Starmill]

They do but only after an hour or more delay.

I think he is right in that that's not technically 'delay repay' - just a claim for compensation under the passenger's charter.

How we have managed to get quite so bogged down splitting hairs though I don't know, so this will be my last post on the subject.

 

[LateThanNever]

How do you get them there? They were trying to get another train there which was having its own problems so, like the recent FGW incident, I highly doubt anyone planned for this to go in so long.

Interesting that both were Worst Group disasters and also that (thinking of Late Western their reliability on IC125s seems to be less than half that of East Coast. Late Western is certainly clean, which is good, but it seems to be downhill everywhere else. All in all similar to Worst Group buses.

 

[jon0844]

When you use words like 'worst group' and 'late western', you do realise it becomes hard to take anything you say seriously? Did you also used say Tony Bliar a lot by any chance?

Surely you can make a point like an adult?

By the way, here's FCC's response:

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/about-us/media-centre/news/2013/response-todays-verdict-relation-stranded-train-may-2011/

Response to today's verdict in relation to a stranded train in May 2011

16/09/2013

Responding to today's verdirct at Blackfriars Crown Court in relation to a stranded train in May 2011, David Statham, First Capital Connect Managing Director said:

“The safety of our passengers is our top priority and we deeply regret what happened back in May 2011.

“We didn’t live up to our own high standards in the way we handled this event which is why we took quick and decisive action afterwards.

“We commissioned comprehensive internal and external investigations that led to a range of actions to ensure this unusual combination of events is extremely unlikely to happen again.

“The safest place for passengers while a controlled evacuation or rescue is being arranged is on the train and we have new processes, techniques and equipment to speed the process whenever possible and to make it more comfortable for those on board.

“We will reflect on the comments made by the judge in court today and ensure they are incorporated in our ongoing process of learning from this incident.

“We would like to apologise once again to all those affected.”

Ends


Notes to editors


1. First Capital Connect has put in place new processes, techniques and equipment so that it is highly unlikely this unusual combination of events will happen again:

Our processes are now focused on the conditions of our passengers in planning our response to the incident.
A specific process has been developed with Network Rail for dealing with stranded trains in central London and staff have been retrained
Train door vent screens now allow doors on this particular type of train to be opened for ventilation while preventing passengers from getting down
Emergency light sticks have been provided
A technique has been developed to prioritise power to keep the train PA system going for longer to provide better information
Staff have been re-briefed on the correct process for moving the train if the safety systems have to be overridden
2. The success of this approach was demonstrated when five trains were evacuated within 90 minutes in very difficult circumstances when overhead power lines came down at Radlett in February this year. On Sunday 15th September a crowded train was stranded near Kentish Town - again because of foliage in the overhead power equipment - and this was rescued by another train in 63 minutes.

 

[LateThanNever]

When you use words like 'worst group' and 'late western', you do realise it becomes hard to take anything you say seriously? Did you also used say Tony Bliar a lot by any chance?

Nope never used Tony Bliar - he's an individual, albeit one for whom I now have contempt. Youv'e fallen for the PR - would Tesco call themselves First?- No - "every little helps" is so much more subtle. Worst group, if you travel with them, which in the far South West is just inevitable on bus or train, is just what they are - Worst and Late. Worst Late Western almost top of the Late table. Why should we fall for the PR - if they lived half way up to their standards the mickey couldn't be so simply taken could it now?

 

[starrymarkb]

FGW are pretty decent in the west IME.

 

[EM2]

And yet, every time I've ever travelled with First, either by train or bus, they've been excellent.

 

[Squaddie]

And yet, every time I've ever travelled with First, either by train or bus, they've been excellent.

I presume "excellent" means that they were merely on time? That is the bare minimum expected of transport companies in most of Europe.

 

[broadgage]

My main concerns about this, and similar long term incidents are the lack of emergency lighting and public address equipment.

Post #44 suggests that this is now being addressed.
In most public buildings there is a legal requirement to provide emergency lighting, usually for 3 hours, yet on trains it seems to be optional.
The power required is very small and is easily supplied from batteries of modest size, weight and cost.
With modern LED lamps, 10 watts should provide ample emergency lighting per coach, a battery to supply 10 watts for 3 hours is a cheap, "off the shelf" item, 6 hours would be better, and still very affordable.
Chemical light sticks or battery lanterns are other possibilities, both are cheap and readily available. It seems that chemical light sticks are now being provided.

Public address systems likewise do not need much power and I fail to see why battery operation for at least 6 hours is not allowed for.
I would estimate that a power supply of 5 watts per coach would give ample audio volume, and since the equipment wont be used continually the average power demand is far less.
Presume the equipment is used 25% of the time, that is an average loading of 1.25 watts per coach, or 5 watts per 4 car unit. 6 hours operation would require 30 watt hours. A battery to supply 30 watt hours is a small and cheap item that should at least 5 years and probably longer.

Functioning PA and emergency lighting would make conditions a bit more tolerable, but wont actually normally reduce the delay.
It would seem that planning for hauling or propelling the failed train could have been better. On an intensively used urban route, should it really take hours to haul or propel a failed train at walking speed to the neaerest station?

IMHO this FCC breakdown was far worse than the recent FGW breakdown near Pewsey. The FCC incident no doubt could have been better handled, but was mitigated by being out in the open, and with functioning lighting, and air conditioning in at least part of the train.
What if someone was taken seriously ill ? in the FCC episode they could well have died in the dark crowded train, even first aid would be problematic in complete darkness. In the FGW breakdown, the air ambulance could have saved a life if need be, not much help in a tunnel though.

BTW, am I the only person who allways has a torch with them on public transport ? (two on FCC !)

 

[jon0844]

I'd have thought that even the old Mk3 EMUs would have been designed to provide emergency power for longer than 10 minutes, and it points to something wrong with the maintenance and servicing of the equipment - perhaps the battery/batteries being faulty and needing to be replaced? Are these things not tested properly?

If true, 10 minutes (even 15, or even an hour) isn't long enough. Plenty of things have been retrofitted to older rolling stock and emergency lighting and perhaps a way to offer limited communication should be as important as any other refurbishment item (new seat covers, flooring, PIS etc).

That isn't a problem solely for FCC of course. It's for all rolling stock and I'd say the ROSCO has the responsibility for this - and should be made to do it, given no ROSCO would do it voluntarily.

Good point about the torch though.. one thing I bet the media didn't pick up on is that I bet it wasn't quite as dark as you might imagine. I bet half the people on the train activated the torch function on their smartphone or just used the light from their LCD displays.

 

[Mark_H]

How difficult would it have been to get a couple of "crowd soothers" on to the train once it was clear that there was going to be a long delay? BTP officers trained in the work? Or was it a case of "It's only going to be another 5 minutes"?

In fact, the report highlights that a "crowd soother" (official title from the report is "Train Operators Liaison Officer") should have been sent, but FCC failed to do so. Later, FCC had a direct request from the Police and Ambulance service to send a manager to the station, which FCC ignored.

The report is just a litany of errors. Another delightful snippet is that it was actually possible to get brief emergency power to operate the PA, but FCC didn't know this, and so had never trained their drivers in it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I presume "excellent" means that they were merely on time? That is the bare minimum expected of transport companies in most of Europe.

So why do Germans constantly complain about their trains being late? The biggest myth of all in the railways seems to be "Why can Europeans do it perfectly, but we can't?"

 

[Flamingo]

So why do Germans constantly complain about their trains being late? The biggest myth of all in the railways seems to be "Why can Europeans do it perfectly, but we can't?"

Don't forget, the last European leader who got the trains to run on time ended up hanging upside down from a lamp-post

 

[jon0844]

Seems like a good incentive to keep them running slow then.

Back to the original story, if FCC made some fundamental mistakes - whether poor maintenance of emergency equipment, not knowing what it could or couldn't do, or refusing certain help - then these things are valid concerns and need to be dealt with.

But the stuff about 'Worst group' and saying every train is late and dirty etc is just nonsense and has nothing to do with the incident anyway.

 

[maniacmartin]

The safest place for passengers while a controlled evacuation or rescue is being arranged is on the train

But if there is no sign of any evacuation or rescue being arranged, then is the safest place still on the train? For how long?

The rail industry seem to think stay on the train is the answer to every incident no matter what, and no matter how long such a rescue takes. I don't think this one rule fits all scenario works, and its unrealistic if there isn't even a working PA or lighting.

 

[jon0844]

If people are told the train has broken down and the fault is being investigated, then besides someone falling ill, nobody should feel that they're in any danger whatsoever.

At this point, it's just the inconvenience of being stuck on a train that isn't moving anywhere. If standing, it's possibly marginally more comfortable than standing on a train bumping around as it goes along (i.e. it wasn't comfortable in the first place).

Lack of information would be frustrating, sure, but it wouldn't automatically lead to people going 'I've not heard anything. This can't be good. Maybe something bad has happened - quick let's jump off the train'.

 

[Mark_H]

But if there is no sign of any evacuation or rescue being arranged, then is the safest place still on the train? For how long?

The rail industry seem to think stay on the train is the answer to every incident no matter what, and no matter how long such a rescue takes. I don't think this one rule fits all scenario works, and its unrealistic if there isn't even a working PA or lighting.

Indeed. The report highlights that "FCC’s policy on stranded trains actually states that train evacuation should be considered after 60 minutes and must be commenced after 90 minutes."

The report states that both a foot evacuation, and transboardment bridges (which FCC had available), were options that should have been seriously considered, and criticise FCC for not doing so.

There was also an option to open the doors but block them with door screens (essentially temporary fences that fix to the handrails), which would have made the conditions inside much better. A recommendation to have these fitted was made way back in 2002, but FCC never took it up.

If people are told the train has broken down and the fault is being investigated, then besides someone falling ill, nobody should feel that they're in any danger whatsoever.

At this point, it's just the inconvenience of being stuck on a train that isn't moving anywhere. If standing, it's possibly marginally more comfortable than standing on a train bumping around as it goes along (i.e. it wasn't comfortable in the first place).

Lack of information would be frustrating, sure, but it wouldn't automatically lead to people going 'I've not heard anything. This can't be good. Maybe something bad has happened - quick let's jump off the train'.

From the report:

81 The research concluded that in a stalled train in still air, without air conditioning, but with a limited number of open emergency windows, conditions become:
l uncomfortable within 40 to 50 minutes (ie any time from 19:05 hrs onwards in the incident on 26 May 2011); and
l intolerable within 70 to 90 minutes (ie any time from 19:35 hrs onwards in the incident on 26 May 2011).

We're not talking about a mild inconvenience here, we're talking intolerable conditions. Passengers had to be treated for heat exhaustion.

 

[broadgage]

If people are told the train has broken down and the fault is being investigated, then besides someone falling ill, nobody should feel that they're in any danger whatsoever.

At this point, it's just the inconvenience of being stuck on a train that isn't moving anywhere. If standing, it's possibly marginally more comfortable than standing on a train bumping around as it goes along (i.e. it wasn't comfortable in the first place).

Lack of information would be frustrating, sure, but it wouldn't automatically lead to people going 'I've not heard anything. This can't be good. Maybe something bad has happened - quick let's jump off the train'.

I cant agree with the "no danger whatsoever" bit.
In warm weather, in a tunnel or out in the open, temperatures can rapidly reach dangerous levels with no or few opening windows and no ventilation.

Decades ago I was stuck in a bad breakdown for many hours in hot weather, this was nothing like as bad as conditions on a modern unit.
Everyone had a seat
The windows all opened
The doors were opened for extra ventilation on the side away from other traffic.
The toilets still worked
The emergency lighting worked (though in fact it was daylight)
Smokers could take theire pleasure
All in all an iritating delay but no danger.

Not all the same as standing on a modern crush loaded train in hot, humid, unventilated conditions, in the dark, for several hours.
Under such conditions evacuation needs to be considered sooner rather than later, as conditions could soon be dangerous.

 

[O L Leigh]

Part of the issue is with the load shedding protocol on Electrostars when they are off the juice. The reason why they do this is sound, because the train needs to protect the batteries against running flat so that the train can be restarted. Unfortunately, for some bizarre reason, the PA seems to be one of the systems that shuts down, even though it is a very low-draw system.

Older units do not have the same battery protection systems and you can quite happily run them flat. The only problem with that is that you might end up with a totally dead train that cannot be revived without assistance from another train. The difference, however, is that they only system you need to run to restart the unit is just the small auxiliary compressor that charges the pan air system. Provided you have enough air to raise the pan and close the VCB the unit can be revived. Modern units, however, have a number of computer systems that require to run before the pan can be raised, all of which require a secure power supply from the batteries.

What I would like to see is some pressure brought to bear on Bombardier to reconfigure the TCMS system on all their electric units to provide for an emergency mode when off the juice that will allow the batteries to be run to a much lower level to provide power for LED emergency lighting (Cl379s have this, but I'm not sure about others) and the PA while awaiting assistance from another unit. There isn't much you can about the bogs unfortunately, because the flush operates by taking air from the main air system and once the pressure drops too low they simply stop working.

Door screens are an interesting idea. I hadn't even heard of them before this report came out. It's a lot of extra workload for the driver stuck with the stranded train when he/she is already going to be overwhelmed by the situation, so I'd be a little cautious about using them. Frankly, my own number one priority would be to get the train moving as soon as I can.

O L Leigh

 

[EM2]

I presume "excellent" means that they were merely on time? That is the bare minimum expected of transport companies in most of Europe.

On time, warm (or cool, depending on season), polite staff, well-stocked refreshments (on trains), well driven (both trains and buses), stations (both rail and bus) clean and tidy with all the facilities open that should have been.