FCC Evening Peak

[sliver]

As always, I'll begin by making excuses for my fare naivety.

Now that is out of the way, I need to travel from Luton - London (assume St Pancras) on Thursday 11th Aug leaving Luton around 11 and returning around 17:15. I have a network railcard.

The FCC evening "peak" has always confused me; TOC marketing made me believe you couldn't use an off peak ticket between 16:30 and 19:00 (I now, thanks to you all, know better, well a little better).

If I get it:
I can't use an off peak day return or off peak travelcard between 16:30 and 19:00.

I can use an off peak single from St Pancras to Luton anytime in the evening peak

I can use an off peak return (but not between 17:30 and 18:30 if I have read and understood this from FCC "Travelling on an Off-Peak (formerly Saver) ticket
Both outward and return portions of this ticket are not valid for journeys which depart Moorgate, Kings Cross or St Pancras International (including pass throughs) between 1730 and 1830 Monday to Friday.

So looking at the above, I can get an Off Peak Return for £16.05 with network railcard discount, I can use this to return from St Pancras to LUT anytime in the evening peak except between 17:30 and 18:30.

Is this the best value ticket for my journey as stated, or does anyone have any better tips/ ideas please

Thanks

 

[bb21]

If I get it:
I can't use an off peak day return or off peak travelcard between 16:30 and 19:00.

Assuming you are referring to the Luton - London Thameslink Off-Peak Day Return or Luton - London Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Day Travelcard, both use restriction code LS.

Your understanding is correct.

I can use an off peak single from St Pancras to Luton anytime in the evening peak

There is no Off-Peak Single. If you mean the £14.30 Off-Peak Day Single, the restriction code is TN. The restriction text is missing on National Rail Enquiries but the full text is as below:

Restriction : TN
Valid as listed below MONDAYS-FRIDAYS (Valid any train on other days)
-
Outward Travel

Valid on any train EXCEPT those timed to Depart between 04.30 and as listed below

Brighton__________________0900
Preston Park______________0911
Hassocks____________ 0909
Burgess Hill 0912
Wivelsfield 0923
Haywards Heath 0918
Balcombe 0937
Three Bridges 0927
Gatwick Airport 0932
East Croydon 0932
Elephant & Castle 0902
London Bridge ____0909
London Blackfriars ____0902
City Thameslink ____0900
Farringdon _______0900
London St Pancras Int. 0900
Kentish Town _________0900
West Hampstead Thameslink 0904
Cricklewood _0907
Hendon _______0900
Mill Hill Broadway________0904
Elstree & Borehamwood _ 0901
Radlett _0906
St Albans _________0909
Harpenden _____0904
Luton Airport Parkway____ 0902
Luton _0905
Leagrave _____________0917
Harlington 0859
Flitwick 0903

Return Travel

Valid on any train EXCEPT those timed to Depart between 04.30 and 09.30

So your understanding is correct in that case.

I can use an off peak return (but not between 17:30 and 18:30 if I have read and understood this from FCC "Travelling on an Off-Peak (formerly Saver) ticket

Restriction 5J whichever way round the ticket is.

Your understanding is correct.

So looking at the above, I can get an Off Peak Return for £16.05 with network railcard discount, I can use this to return from St Pancras to LUT anytime in the evening peak except between 17:30 and 18:30.

Correct.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So looking at the above, I can get an Off Peak Return for £16.05 with network railcard discount, I can use this to return from St Pancras to LUT anytime in the evening peak except between 17:30 and 18:30.

You cannot use the return portion of a ticket before the outward portion of the ticket. You cannot buy a STP-LUT off peak return and use it to travel LUT-STP before you travel STP-LUT.

 

[sliver]

You cannot use the return portion of a ticket before the outward portion of the ticket. You cannot buy a STP-LUT off peak return and use it to travel LUT-STP before you travel STP-LUT.

Thanks, badly written on my part perhaps. Travel from Luton to London first, it was the evening peak return journey I wanted clarity on (which I think I now have)

 

[stephy]

so you're telling me I can use a c.£14 off peak day single farringdon/st pancras to bedford between 4.30-7pm? when all this time i've been buying the £16 peak single?? (with YP railcard discount)

 

[bb21]

Yes, same for the Bedford tickets with this one.

 

[stephy]

you are kidding me. so for weeks now i've been paying £2 extra...
and is this valid on EMT too? how does the evening peak ACTUALLY work? i did a search but ended up on silver's old/confusing thread..

and re: excessing fares other than penalty faring them, EMT always say 'if your ticket isnt for this service you will be charged a whole new one at maximum fare' so thats not actually allowed ?? they should just excess it?

 

[bb21]

A London Thameslink/Terminals - Bedford Stations Off-Peak Day Single (£21.50 / £14.20 with R/C) takes restriction code TN.

As you can see from the restriction text I quoted above, there is no evening restriction.

I have a sneaky suspicion though that it may be a mistake in the restriction code, but as things stand, it is valid on trains in the afternoon peak as there is no afternoon restriction.

Peak restrictions are defined by the restriction text each ticket is associated with (through a restriction code). There is no uniform definition what "peak" is. Each ticket is different.

You cannot be charged a Penalty Fare if your ticket is only invalid due to a published time restriction, eg. using an Off-Peak ticket at a restricted time. The correct course of action in these situations is to issue an excess fare for the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest walk-on ticket that would be valid for the journey made. The ticket mentioned above is routed Any Permitted so there is no operator restriction. Any Penalty Fare issued under these circumstances are invalid, and shall be declared so upon the appeal being lodged.

I believe the announcements you mentioned on EMT actually relate to not travelling on the correct service reserved for an Advance ticket, rather than tickets with time restrictions, in which case the maximum fare cannot be charged, but the cheapest walk-on fare if the passenger is on an incorrect service but the correct route / date / operator.

 

[yorkie]

how does the evening peak ACTUALLY work? i

You have to look at the wording of the restriction text for the specific ticket(s) you hold.

The easiest website to use is BRfares.com, which is an unofficial site.

 

[stephy]

so what do i say to the EMT staff tonight who try to say my 'off peak' £14.20 ticket is invalid? they've done this before - genuinely thought i'd done something wrong so have been being honest and paying the peak single all along
what is the point in the peak single then?! can't believe this

 

[bb21]

As I said, I suspect that the restriction code may be an error.

If this happens again, politely request that the guard looks up the restriction text for your ticket. If he refuses and insists on charging you an excess, I would say pay it and claim it back afterwards.

It may also be helpful if you can print out the restriction text for your ticket and carry it with you.

 

[stephy]

I think I should print it from an official source and not this forum? I couldnt find it on the BR fares site
Or just the wording above will suffice?

 

[bb21]

The relevant page appears missing on NRE.

This is from BRFares. You can also just print out this page.

The guard should have access to the fare details on his machine.

 

[stephy]

Thank you very much.
Not looking forward to when this railcard runs out.. 2 months before i'm 27 mind. done well!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
what does the bit about when the restrictions do NOT apply mean?

 

[bb21]

Which bit?

 

[stephy]

near the end, says restriction code R1 this restriction card does NOT apply on the following days
and lists some dates

 

[bb21]

That's to do with journey planner internal workings. Not really of concern to the passenger (and anything else after the title "Unpublished Restrictions"). I believe the part you referred to relates to Railcard minimum fare, which do not apply on Bank Holidays and at weekends.

 

[maniacmartin]

The bit where it says when the restrictions don't apply under the red heading lists weekends and bank holiday Mondays.

The more interesting bit is the left column near the top under the green RESTRICTIONS bar, which is the actual restrictions text

 

[Paul Kelly]

I don't see why the lack of afternoon peak restriction heading out of London on the Off-Peak Day Single & Return (restriction TN) should be a mistake. The biggest market for Off-Peak Day Returns is most likely people leaving London in the late morning / early afternoon, and heading back against the evening peak flow (which is out of London).

 

[bb21]

Do they really want to offer Off-Peak Day fares to people travelling with the afternoon peak flow? With an afternoon restriction heading out of London they could still be useful to those people you described.

The number of passengers using this ticket in the afternoon peak may well be small enough not to bother FCC.

I don't know for sure it is a mistake, just a hunch, especially with the restriction text missing.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I suppose if FCC thought the market for Off-Peak Day Singles was much more likely to include people travelling out of London in the evening peak they could change the restriction code, but since there's only 10p difference (5p with a railcard difference), affected passengers could just buy the return instead!

 

[bb21]

To be honest, it is not even FCC I'm concerned about. The OP mentioned getting in trouble on an EMT service, and the cynic inside me can picture them dropping FCC some "hints" if they don't like it.

Of course collusion is not officially permitted, but it's not as if the railway industry are squeaky clean on that front.

 

[Paul Kelly]

Yes, I think I maybe see what you mean now, though - it's not really a "mistake" the way it is, but rather a missed opportunity to be more draconian!

 

[stephy]

EMT twitter is not accepting the ticket's validity!

 

[talldave]

FWIW the TN restrictions listed in post 2 are wrong, you need to subtract a minute from all those times. For example, a TN ticket IS valid on the 09.32 from Gatwick.

I started a thread on this but am on a phone at the moment so not easy to cross reference.

 

[RJ]

so what do i say to the EMT staff tonight who try to say my 'off peak' £14.20 ticket is invalid? they've done this before - genuinely thought i'd done something wrong so have been being honest and paying the peak single all along
what is the point in the peak single then?! can't believe this

Tell them I said it's valid. That should be good enough to see you through!

 

[bb21]

FWIW the TN restrictions listed in post 2 are wrong, you need to subtract a minute from all those times. For example, a TN ticket IS valid on the 09.32 from Gatwick.

I started a thread on this but am on a phone at the moment so not easy to cross reference.

You may want to provide the OP with a reference to help him.

That is all I can find from NFM18.

Tell them I said it's valid. That should be good enough to see you through!

 

[Stats]

FWIW the TN restrictions listed in post 2 are wrong, you need to subtract a minute from all those times. For example, a TN ticket IS valid on the 09.32 from Gatwick.

You are correct according to the ticket restriction text on NRE
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/ticket_types/restrictions/TN

Outward Travel

Not valid for travel on trains timed to depart after 04:29 and before the times shown from the following stations:
•09:00 from Brighton
•09:11 from Preston Park
•09:09 from Hassocks
•09:12 from Burgess Hill
•09:23 from Wivelsfield
•09:18 from Haywards Heath
•09:37 from Balcombe
•09:27 from Three Bridges
•09:32 from Gatwick Airport
.....

 

[bb21]

Hmm, so NFM18 is wrong. How interesting!

Seems like the NRE restrictions page is also all over the place too.

 

[talldave]

The TN thread was here http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=102668

If understand correctly, the info used by brfares comes from a database that FCC created; if anyone has a contact at FCC maybe we could get it fixed?