FCC Evening Peak - Excess Fares

[PTF62]

Could one of the ticketing experts clarify a point.

If you have an Off-Peak return to Kings Cross and are travelling north into zone D (of their off-peak restriction map), then obviously you are restricted from travelling during the evening peak.

I understand that you can "excess" the ticket to allow you to travel on the peak trains. However what are the rules if you get on the train without buying the excess first (the ticket machines don't sell excesses, big queues at the ticket office, and trin leaving in 5 mins), but plan on paying it either on the train, or at the far end (the station I use has a barrier and is manned until the end of the evening peak, so I am not attempting to avoid paying the fare).

I have had three different answers from RPIs I have asked, and a "just don't it" without further explanation from the ticket counter. The answers were -

a) You can pay an excess fare, and it will just be the difference between the peak return and the off-peak return (including any discount if you hold an NSE).

b) You are not holding a valid ticket so you have to buy a new full price single.

c) You will be prosecuted for fare evasion.

Anybody know what the correct answer is.

 

[yorkie]

I have had three different answers from RPIs I have asked, and a "just don't it" without further explanation from the ticket counter.

Hmm, I wonder why they said that, they obviously didn't want to tell the truth!

(I shouldn't laugh really - that's an appalling answer)

a) You can pay an excess fare, and it will just be the difference between the peak return and the off-peak return (including any discount if you hold an NSE).

Correct!

b) You are not holding a valid ticket so you have to buy a new full price single.

Incorrect

c) You will be prosecuted for fare evasion.

Incorrect

See this topic and on a slightly related note I recall a topic where someone used the rtn portion of an off peak ticket that was something likeLondon to Cambridge, before 10am with a Network Railcard, they got a train that was before 10am and the railcard was therefore not valid, they were excessed up to the non-railcard discounted off peak fare. I can't find that topic now.

 

[glynn80]

I understand that you can "excess" the ticket to allow you to travel on the peak trains. However what are the rules if you get on the train without buying the excess first (the ticket machines don't sell excesses, big queues at the ticket office, and trin leaving in 5 mins), but plan on paying it either on the train, or at the far end (the station I use has a barrier and is manned until the end of the evening peak, so I am not attempting to avoid paying the fare).

I have had three different answers from RPIs I have asked, and a "just don't it" without further explanation from the ticket counter. The answers were -

a) You can pay an excess fare, and it will just be the difference between the peak return and the off-peak return (including any discount if you hold an NSE).

b) You are not holding a valid ticket so you have to buy a new full price single.

c) You will be prosecuted for fare evasion.

The correct answer is (a).

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage carries details of this situation as follows:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions are set out in the notices and other publications of the Train Companies whose trains you are entitled to use. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then:

(a) you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price
paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket
available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that
train for the journey shown on the ticket); or

(b) in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 or 4 will apply.

So as you can see above, if you a travelling in a train and the ticket you are using is not valid because of a published restriction the only course of action an RPI/guard is permitted to use is to excess the passengers fare the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel (this procedure does not apply to Advance fares as stated in 12(b)).

Just for final confirmation, that the only course of action would be an excess fare, the Penalty Fares Policy on the DfT website clearly states:

7.6 An authorised collector must not charge a penalty fare to a person whose ticket is not valid only because of a published restriction, as described in condition 12 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

 

[John @ home]

If you have an Off-Peak return to Kings Cross and are travelling north into zone D (of their off-peak restriction map), then obviously you are restricted from travelling during the evening peak.

I understand that you can "excess" the ticket to allow you to travel on the peak trains. However what are the rules if you get on the train without buying the excess first

The FCC web page on When can off peak tickets be used? gives the first part of the answer:

Will I receive a penalty fare for travelling with a restricted ticket on these services?
No, as laid down in the Penalty Fare Rules any customers travelling on a restricted ticket will be charged the appropriate excess fare in accordance with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage.

http://www.firstcapitalconnect.co.uk/Main.php?iCmsPageId=134

Then the National Rail Conditions of Carriage give the detail - see Condition 12 quoted in full by glynn80 above.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Here (a) is quite reassuring - it suggests "You can pay an excess fare, and it will just be the difference between the peak return and the off-peak return". But an Off-Peak Return (or an Off-Peak Day Return) is a discounted ticket, so we had better check Conditions 2 and 4.

2. Requirement to hold a ticket
Before you travel you must have a ticket or other authority to travel which is valid for the train(s) you intend to use and for the journey you intend to make. If you travel in a train:
(a) without a ticket; or
(b) the circumstances described in Conditions 10, 11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply;
you will be liable to pay the full single fare or full return fare or, if appropriate, a Penalty Fare (see Condition 4) for your journey. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms unless either:
(i) at the station where you started your journey: there was no ticket office or no ticket office was open and there were no self- service ticket
machines or no self-service ticket machines were in full working order and in Penalty Fares areas you bought a Permit to Travel unless no Permit to Travel issuing machine was in full working order; or
(ii) the notices and other publications issued by the Train Company in whose
train you are travelling indicate that you can buy tickets in that train.
In circumstances where (i) or (ii) apply, you only need to pay the fare that you would have paid if you had bought a ticket immediately before your journey.
Special arrangements may apply if you are disabled. You will find details of these arrangements in each Train Company’s ‘Disabled People’s Protection Policy’.
For the purposes of this Condition, and Conditions 4, 39 and 41, "full single fare or full return fare" means the highest priced single or (if requested by the
passenger) return fare appropriate to the class of travel for the journey you are making.

4. Penalty Fares
[snipped]

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

We can eliminate the reference to Condition 4: Penalty Fares because the FCC web site quoted above is unambiguous: you will not receive a penalty fare for travelling with a restricted ticket on these services. The quotation by glynn80 from the Penalty Fares Policy is also helpful here.

But the reference in 12(b) needs further study: in the case of some types of discounted tickets (as indicated in the notices and publications) the relevant parts of Condition 2 ... will apply.

Unfortunately the notices and publications are not collected together in one place, so we have to examine these for each particular type of discounted ticket. The Off-Peak ticket terms and conditions are helpful:

Changing the time or date of travel
If you wish to change your time of travel or class of the ticket, you can pay the difference between the cost of the ticket held and the cost of the ticket that is most appropriate for the journey you need to make.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/offpeak_conditions.html

These conditions do not restrict the time when you can pay the difference, so that can be at the passenger's convenience. The relevant conditions for Off-Peak Day tickets are identical.

The OP mentions including any discount if you hold an NSE, so let's look at the Terms and Conditions of use of the Network Railcard.

4) You will be asked to pay the difference between the price of your discounted ticket and the full Standard fare (or the Penalty Fare if travelling in the Penalty Fares area) if:
a) you travel beyond the station for which your ticket is issued;
b) you travel to a destination beyond the area shown on the map in this leaflet, without having first obtained the correct ticket for your journey;
c) you travel on a route for which a higher fare applies or at a time when reduced fares do not apply.

http://www.railcard.co.uk/network/terms

This opens a whole new debate about whether reduced fares in this context means fares reduced by a Network Railcard, or fares reduced by using an Off-Peak rather than an Anytime ticket. Taking all this together, it seems to me that:

1. When travelling on an undiscounted Off-Peak or Off-Peak Day ticket, you can pay the difference between the peak return and the off-peak return on the train.

2. When travelling on an Off-Peak or Off-Peak Day ticket discounted by a Network Card, on the train you may be asked to pay the difference between the undiscounted peak return and the discounted off-peak return. Sometimes it may be cheaper to buy a new full price single.

Sorry it's all so complicated.

John