FCC Dec 2010 timetable

[wyvfe1]

I thought we would be getting more than 2 trains per hour to WGC from Moorgate.

After 7pm there is only 2 trains per hour to New Southgate have i misread the timetable.

 

[jon0844]

The main improvements are in the peak, and most services are strengthened from 3 to 6 and 4 to 8 cars. The stopping patterns in/out of King's Cross have been tweaked slightly too, based on what has been surveyed over the year.

There are plans to ultimately get a 15-minute frequency, and maybe later hours, to Moorgate (maybe even weekend running one day?) but this is all a plan and there's nothing concrete. It's certainly something to aim towards, as it would make both Hertford and WGC routes operate more like a tube line - just turn up and go and don't care about the timetable.

 

[Aictos]

There are two services a hour from Moorgate BUT there are two services in the peak from Kings Cross which is Finsbury Park then New Southgate so you're probably better off going from Kings Cross for a faster service.

Anyway, I rather see the Hertfords and Welwyns go to a 20 minute frequency at the weekends with the NCL open from 6am to 10pm rather then a half hourly service into Kings Cross as during the off peak from Moorgate to Hertford, services run every 20 minutes in both directions so should be possible at the weekends.

I would also welcome the chance for the existing weekend Hertford terminators to be extended to Stevenage to give a basic 30 minute frequency between London and Stevenage via Hertford rather then the current 30 minute frequency between London and Hertford with a hourly frequency between Hertford and Stevenage.

 

[t0ffeeman]

Stevenage really needs a bay platform for the Hertfords. The down slow is congested as it is. But there are points at both ends

 

[barrykas]

Anyway, I rather see the Hertfords and Welwyns go to a 20 minute frequency at the weekends with the NCL open from 6am to 10pm rather then a half hourly service into Kings Cross as during the off peak from Moorgate to Hertford, services run every 20 minutes in both directions so should be possible at the weekends.

I'd be quite happy to retain the half hourly service at the weekends, given that doing otherwise would probably mean a recast of the entire GN side timetable, but six cars on the loop off-peak and at weekends would be nice.

I've lost track of the number of times I've had to stand from Palmers Green to at least Finsbury Park at weekends...

Cheers,

Barry

 

[ungreat]

What IS overlooked is the fact that even now we are working rest days constantly(well,Im not,but some are) to maintain the service we have...god knows how the service is going to be come January....our new roster has been posted,and we have an unprecedented 7 vacancies..at Peterborough that is unheard of.KX,Hitchin and Cambs will have a lot more.With only 14 new drivers due to pass out in January,wheres the staff to run the trains?

Good will AGAIN

 

[Aictos]

Indeed, Kings Cross drivers haven't completed their 321 training yet so that's going to be fun!

 

[91101]

There is not the capacity in terms of platform availability at the moment to sustain 20min WGC or HFN timetable at weekeds, its extremely tight as it is.

When the project is complete, and East Coast have additional services, and all 12 platforms are fully open, there may be some extra space!

 

[jopsuk]

There is not the capacity in terms of platform availability at the moment to sustain 20min WGC or HFN timetable at weekeds, its extremely tight as it is.

Yes there is, there's a whole branch line south of Finsbury Park sitting unused...

 

[Aictos]

Yes there is, there's a whole branch line south of Finsbury Park sitting unused...

Otherwise known as the Northern City Line,

 

[stut]

Ah, so where are the 'new' 321s going? Will there be any of the peak Peterborough services still on 365s?

(Having all the extra capacity is great, of course, but I really find the 321s terribly uncomfortable...)

 

[Aictos]

Ah, so where are the 'new' 321s going? Will there be any of the peak Peterborough services still on 365s?

(Having all the extra capacity is great, of course, but I really find the 321s terribly uncomfortable...)

You need to check the FCC website but I believe a number of Peterborough services are being strengthened to 8 cars which is only possible with the 321s coming, two services which are being strengthened is the 0512 to 8 cars and the 0704 to 12 cars, both are very busy trains.

I don't think the 321s are too bad, although I wouldn't mind letting them and the 317s having the same seats/tables as the 319/2s have, same as the 365s if they had tables like the 319/2s,

 

[jopsuk]

I'm guessing that with several Cambridge services (currently 365s) being strengthened, some more Peterborough 365 services will be going over to 321s- unless 321s are to start being regular up the Cambridge line.

 

[Pumbaa]

I'm guessing that with several Cambridge services (currently 365s) being strengthened, some more Peterborough 365 services will be going over to 321s- unless 321s are to start being regular up the Cambridge line.

Doubt it. Cambridge FCC are premier provider vs NXEA, wouldn't make sense downgrading their operation and as such losing money. EC are premier provider to Peterborough and as such FCC can afford to downgrade their service with 321s.

 

[philjo]

Also, a number of the Cambridge services have a portion to/from Kings Lynn which is a much longer journey, so they would stay as 365s.
The Peak hour services that start at Royston are mainly 365s with a few 317s so they may possibly get substituted by 321s.
The stoping services from Cambridge in the peak are 8-car 317s.

Will be interesting to see what I get on my morning service from Letchworth (starts out of the sidings) - it is currently 6 car 313s but I have been told it will go to 8 cars in December timetable. I suspect it will be a pair of 317s to allow 321s to take over one of the longer distance 317 workings.

 

[jon0844]

Will be interesting to see what I get on my morning service from Letchworth (starts out of the sidings) - it is currently 6 car 313s but I have been told it will go to 8 cars in December timetable. I suspect it will be a pair of 317s to allow 321s to take over one of the longer distance 317 workings.

There's a good chance that will mean a declassified first class on that service, so a bonus for you!

Actually, FCC has the timetable online so you can check that right now!

 

[stut]

You need to check the FCC website but I believe a number of Peterborough services are being strengthened to 8 cars which is only possible with the 321s coming, two services which are being strengthened is the 0512 to 8 cars and the 0704 to 12 cars, both are very busy trains.

I don't think the 321s are too bad, although I wouldn't mind letting them and the 317s having the same seats/tables as the 319/2s have, same as the 365s if they had tables like the 319/2s,

It's mostly the peak services I'm interested in, as that's when I travel. There is a brand new, very welcome, HUN-KGX, fast from Arlesey, as well as a couple of PBO-KGX fasts been extended to 8 cars (as well as the 4s going to 8 in the 'shoulder' peak).

Normally, I get the 0756 BIW-KGX out and the 1840 back. They're great services, and have a comfortable loading in 365s. Being 'downgraded' to 321s wouldn't be the end of the world, but spending 32 hours a month in the company of a particular train company makes you rather picky. And the seats on a busy 321 really aren't nice when you're over 6' - so low you can't sit without playing footsie with the person opposite (hardly any 'airline seats'), and so far back, you can't read without getting a crick in your neck.

I do expect the 365s to go to Cambridge, though. I can certainly see why the Lynn trains should be, and consistency is probably a good idea.

 

[A0]

There are two services a hour from Moorgate BUT there are two services in the peak from Kings Cross which is Finsbury Park then New Southgate so you're probably better off going from Kings Cross for a faster service.

Anyway, I rather see the Hertfords and Welwyns go to a 20 minute frequency at the weekends with the NCL open from 6am to 10pm rather then a half hourly service into Kings Cross as during the off peak from Moorgate to Hertford, services run every 20 minutes in both directions so should be possible at the weekends.

I would also welcome the chance for the existing weekend Hertford terminators to be extended to Stevenage to give a basic 30 minute frequency between London and Stevenage via Hertford rather then the current 30 minute frequency between London and Hertford with a hourly frequency between Hertford and Stevenage.

When the electric service started in 1976 I believe the basic frequency was 20 minutes from both WGC & Hertford to Moorgate.

The NCL services were withdrawn from Moorgate in the late evenings in the late 70s / early 80s and diverted to KX because passengers returning from the West End disliked having to sit around at Highbury or Finsbury Pk where there are few facilities. I think the weekend services to Moorgate were withdrawn in the mid 80s and moved to KX, mainly because of lack of patronage beyond Finsbury Pk - which is hardly surprising given the bulk of the users will be commuters as the city isn't really a tourist / leisure destination. In years gone by, some worked Saturday mornings in the city, but that's disappeared over time.

In terms of making the Hertford - Stevenage service half-hourly at weekends, I'm not sure there's really the demand to justify that - there's only one intermediate stop - Watton at Stone - and I can't believe the flows between Stevenage & Hertford or for other stations on the loop to / from Stevenage are that great. I believe for many years there wasn't a service between Stevenage & Hertford (60s / 70s) and one came about when electrification took place, initially by extending some of the Huntingdon - Hitchin DMUs and later by extending a Hertford service to Letchworth.

 

[jon0844]

I agree that Moorgate is dead on weekends (at least, to warrant a regular train service) but I'd suggest that Old Street is very busy on account of Shoreditch - so a late service at least on a Friday night and Saturday/night would be worthwhile - and the connection with London Overground at Highbury & Islington.

You could potentially close Essex Road at weekends, and Moorgate would have to stay open simply as the trains would have to go there to turn back.

It's a totally different crowd at Old Street to the people going home from the West End. Shoreditch is thriving and is to many people a totally separate place to go.

 

[A0]

I agree that Moorgate is dead on weekends (at least, to warrant a regular train service) but I'd suggest that Old Street is very busy on account of Shoreditch - so a late service at least on a Friday night and Saturday/night would be worthwhile - and the connection with London Overground at Highbury & Islington.

You could potentially close Essex Road at weekends, and Moorgate would have to stay open simply as the trains would have to go there to turn back.

It's a totally different crowd at Old Street to the people going home from the West End. Shoreditch is thriving and is to many people a totally separate place to go.

But Old St is 2 stops on the Northern Line from KX, so I don't think there's a particular hardship to going to KX change ? That way travellers on the GN have all the late-night services leaving from one station which is easier, particularly if you miss a train. And for travellers heading to North London / Middx, they could stay on the Northern Line to High Barnet or change at KX to the Piccadilly line - between the two they pretty much mirror the GN route.

Highbury has the Victoria line - so again 1 stop will get you to KX or FP where a change to GN services can easily be made.

The Shoreditch area probably doesn't need the link to Highbury since the Overground line which has replaced the ELL runs right through Shoreditch and up to Dalston.

 

[jon0844]

You are right, but it's another option (and always a nice backup for when there's disruption). People would surely prefer to go to Hertford or WGC (and every station between) direct than take the Northern Line and change (along with the wait), but I accept it's not too much of a hardship.

But, you could extend that argument for weekdays too (ignoring capacity issues). Running trains to Moorgate at night and on a weekend does free up platforms at KGX.

 

[Fred26]

When the electric service started in 1976 I believe the basic frequency was 20 minutes from both WGC & Hertford to Moorgate.

The NCL services were withdrawn from Moorgate in the late evenings in the late 70s / early 80s and diverted to KX because passengers returning from the West End disliked having to sit around at Highbury or Finsbury Pk where there are few facilities. I think the weekend services to Moorgate were withdrawn in the mid 80s and moved to KX, mainly because of lack of patronage beyond Finsbury Pk - which is hardly surprising given the bulk of the users will be commuters as the city isn't really a tourist / leisure destination. In years gone by, some worked Saturday mornings in the city, but that's disappeared over time.

In terms of making the Hertford - Stevenage service half-hourly at weekends, I'm not sure there's really the demand to justify that - there's only one intermediate stop - Watton at Stone - and I can't believe the flows between Stevenage & Hertford or for other stations on the loop to / from Stevenage are that great. I believe for many years there wasn't a service between Stevenage & Hertford (60s / 70s) and one came about when electrification took place, initially by extending some of the Huntingdon - Hitchin DMUs and later by extending a Hertford service to Letchworth.

I think Stevenage-Hertford does need two trains per hour. The only reason I can think that FCC won't introduce one is due to platform constraints at Stevenage and paths across the mainline at Hitchin. Once the Hitchin flyover is built I image we'll see more Stevenage-Hertford trains.
Also, from the new timetable, there is one extra Stevenage-Hertford service. It will run at 1529 from Stevenage, starting back at Letchworth. Which is good...

 

[A0]

I think Stevenage-Hertford does need two trains per hour. The only reason I can think that FCC won't introduce one is due to platform constraints at Stevenage and paths across the mainline at Hitchin. Once the Hitchin flyover is built I image we'll see more Stevenage-Hertford trains.
Also, from the new timetable, there is one extra Stevenage-Hertford service. It will run at 1529 from Stevenage, starting back at Letchworth. Which is good...

Given we're talking about weekends, there should actually be fewer problems with reversal at Stevenage as there is less traffic. Surely the only reason the service should be increased is if there is demand for it?

As I see it, the traffic between Stevenage & Hertford (and vice versa) probably isn't that great. I can't believe that demand between Stevenage & Ally Pally (and vice versa) is that high either. Travellers for London from Stevenage will opt for other, far faster services so an additional slow via Hertford service probably won't attract custom.

 

[jon0844]

I have to say that I loved the fact EC are running a special timetable. This morning my train was early at Hatfield, shunted out to the fast line and arrived at Finsbury Park 3 minutes early - literally flying along at top speed all the way! I got off only to leave people rather upset at having to sit around waiting for the RA!

God, if only every morning there was virtually nothing on the fasts....!

 

[Fred26]

Given we're talking about weekends, there should actually be fewer problems with reversal at Stevenage as there is less traffic. Surely the only reason the service should be increased is if there is demand for it?

As I see it, the traffic between Stevenage & Hertford (and vice versa) probably isn't that great. I can't believe that demand between Stevenage & Ally Pally (and vice versa) is that high either. Travellers for London from Stevenage will opt for other, far faster services so an additional slow via Hertford service probably won't attract custom.

I am tending to agree. I don't think there'd be a problem reversing two an hour at Stevenage, if FCC really wanted to. I'm not so sure about the demand though. FCC could always try running a two an hour and see how they get on. Frankly, I think one and hour between Stevenage and Hertford is ****-poor.

 

[philjo]

When the EC timetable changes next May the connections from Hertford services to/from EC services at Stevenage will probably get worse than at present.

There will be the York/Newark Stoppers (at aound xx:27 ??)
and the Leeds service northbound at xx:55 (calling grantham, doncaster, wakefield) but these will be very tight from the incoming service from Hertford (current off-peak arrival is at xx:51) so you would have to wait an hour at stevenage for a guaranteed connection. (currently a lot of the Leeds stops are at xx:29)
2 services an hour run from Hertford to Stevenage in the peaks so it would be possible to do off-peak as well.
The main traffic would be Hertford (& other loop stations) to Stevenage plus connections for Cambridge/Peterborough/EC services rather than Stevenage to London passengers.

 

[Fred26]

I thought Stevenage was just getting one an hour to Leeds, with the only service going further being a Newcastle first thing Monday-Friday.

 

[radamfi]

Any reason why FCC have decided to stop at Three Bridges 4 times per hour instead of the existing 2?

 

[jon0844]

Yesterday I saw the first FCC 313 with the low seats (131 or 134?) and named City of London. Today, my train was nearly empty - so if people in the City are already breaking up for Christmas, there will be LOT of empty seats next week.

Meanwhile, I'm in mourning after taking my last journey to work where I can sit in first class. Funny thing was it was completely empty when I got on it (not the train, just first) and my favourite RPI was getting off.. so I wonder if he'd told everyone to get out - or even issued PFs. It's not first class until Sunday (in other words Monday)!!

 

[Aictos]

Yesterday I saw the first FCC 313 with the low seats (131 or 134?) and named City of London. Today, my train was nearly empty - so if people in the City are already breaking up for Christmas, there will be LOT of empty seats next week.

Meanwhile, I'm in mourning after taking my last journey to work where I can sit in first class. Funny thing was it was completely empty when I got on it (not the train, just first) and my favourite RPI was getting off.. so I wonder if he'd told everyone to get out - or even issued PFs. It's not first class until Sunday (in other words Monday)!!

313134 has been confirmed as being renamed City of London,