FCC Class 313 Replacement

[Kingfisher200262]

A simple question, with maybe not such a simple answer.

Will the FCC Class 313 fleet be replaced as part of the Siemens Thameslink order?

If not, does anybody know what is planned?

 

[tbtc]

As far as I know, the simple answer is no, the Moorgate branch will be essentially independent from the rest of GN when the longer distance services go through the Thameslink tunnel.

Not aware of any plans to replace the 313s (the tight clearance on the Moorgate tunnels supposedly makes them difficult to replace with most other stock.

(there are rumours about the Moorgate line coming under TfL jurisdiction, but not heard anything serious on this)

 

[cj_1985]

if the FCC 313s were to be replaced...
i would think that if common sense was used... that whoever is operating the Thameslink and Great Northern franchise could order a few extra units identical or similar to the MerseyRail replacement EMUs... since the MR 507 and 508s are more or less the same in terms of dimmensions... so whatever is ordered and spec'd to fit the merseyrail route tunnels... should be suitable for use on the moorgate branch


but then as we all know common sense doesnt seem to exist on the passenger side of the railway these days

 

[Aictos]

There's been nothing said so far to the replacement of the 313s currently used on the FCC Inners and it's just rumours so far to the services coming under TfL jurisdiction - Network Rail about 2 to 3 years back actually surveyed the former Down Bay at Gordon Hill with intend to bring it back into service (it's still fully electrified) but nothing has happened to date.

Even though the stock needs to be replaced eventually, it would probably be the 21st century's LTS line with the 313s staying in service until 2027 easily which is when they reach their 50th birthday.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

if the FCC 313s were to be replaced...
i would think that if common sense was used... that whoever is operating the Thameslink and Great Northern franchise could order a few extra units identical or similar to the MerseyRail replacement EMUs... since the MR 507 and 508s are more or less the same in terms of dimmensions... so whatever is ordered and spec'd to fit the merseyrail route tunnels... should be suitable for use on the moorgate branch


but then as we all know common sense doesnt seem to exist on the passenger side of the railway these days

That would be a good idea, except that the 313 replacement needs to be dual voltage and the 507/508 replacement only needs to be 750 V dc. It might make sense however for some of the next Mersey fleet to also be dual voltage, to potentially take advantage of the North West electrification and to help with residual value. On the other hand, for the majority of the fleet, which would probably be tied to the Wirral and Northern lines for all of their 35 - 40 year life, it would mean carrying all the extra kit around, maintaining it and never, ever using it.

Interesting challenge for the specifiers, but the 313 replacement element might help to justify a small number of the Mersey fleet being specified as dual voltage units, or at least being prepared so that this could be retro-fitted at low cost (pantograph well, mountings for transformer, cable runs etc).

 

[sprinterguy]

That would be a good idea, except that the 313 replacement needs to be dual voltage and the 507/508 replacement only needs to be 750 V dc. It might make sense however for some of the next Mersey fleet to also be dual voltage, to potentially take advantage of the North West electrification and to help with residual value. On the other hand, for the majority of the fleet, which would probably be tied to the Wirral and Northern lines for all of their 35 - 40 year life, it would mean carrying all the extra kit around, maintaining it and never, ever using it.

Interesting challenge for the specifiers, but the 313 replacement element might help to justify a small number of the Mersey fleet being specified as dual voltage units, or at least being prepared so that this could be retro-fitted at low cost (pantograph well, mountings for transformer, cable runs etc).

The majority of modern EMU designs in the UK are designed to very easily be converted from third rail to AC overhead operation due to the modular construction methods used meaning that many components are common to both EMU variants. Most third rail EMUs have pantograph wells to allow conversion to AC overhead operation, as was the case with the 350/1s originally intended for Southern.

I think it would be a good idea to replace the Merseyrail units and the 313s at the same time with the same design of train. It seems strange that the Thameslink project will replace most of the Great Northern train fleet expect for its' oldest trains (And the oldest MUs on the network now that the CIGs are gone and exclduing the odd bubble car), but that's just the way things are.

 

[swt_passenger]

... or at least being prepared so that this could be retro-fitted at low cost (pantograph well, mountings for transformer, cable runs etc).

That is apparently the standard policy for all new EMUs. SWT's Desiro fleet is in exactly that condition - space, pan well, cabling, control panel switches but no expensive lumps of hardware. It is arguable that the 450s and 444s should be numbered in the 300 series, like all the other SN and SE units that are in a similar 'fitted for but not with AC' status...

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...It seems strange that the Thameslink project will replace most of the Great Northern train fleet expect for its' oldest trains (And the oldest MUs on the network now that the CIGs are gone and exclduing the odd bubble car), but that's just the way things are.

It isn't really strange at all though, is it? The Thameslink rolling stock is clearly only for two uses - the current Thameslink route and the routes being transferred in. Given that it comes in only 8 and 12 car fixed formations this was never going to include the Moorgate services, so AFAICT a 100% replacement of the GN side fleet has never been anticipated...

I've always assumed that the Wimbledon/Sutton loop hasn't ever been part of the deal either - despite the various weasel words about the future of the loop still being 'under consideration'.

 

[tbtc]

Common stock with Merseyrail makes sense, especially as Merseyrail may need some AC running if Kirby-Wigan or Chester-Crewe get electrified at some stage

There's also the question of what happens to the Southern 313s - are we just assuming that they will be replaced in the general influx of new stock (and stock displaced by Thameslink)? (rather than being specifically replaced)

 

[A0]

As far as I know, the simple answer is no, the Moorgate branch will be essentially independent from the rest of GN when the longer distance services go through the Thameslink tunnel.

Not aware of any plans to replace the 313s (the tight clearance on the Moorgate tunnels supposedly makes them difficult to replace with most other stock.

(there are rumours about the Moorgate line coming under TfL jurisdiction, but not heard anything serious on this)

The Moorgate services are essentially separate to the "longer distance" services and always have been since electrification in 1976 by the nature of the rolling stock, having said that, it's highly unlikely it will come under TFL jurisdiction in the way the old Silverlink Metro services have - simply because so much of the route is outside the London area and has to be timetabled in with the outer-suburban services using the same tracks / stations. The Silverlink Metro (Watford DC services) run completely separately to the other WCML services apart from the last stretch into Euston.

There's no way it will be acceptable for TFL to be running services to Welwyn GC, Hertford, Stevenage or Letchworth.

In terms of replacement stock - I'd have expected Capitalstars or some variant thereof would be most likely. I suspect the configuration will be driven by the Drayton Pk - Moorgate platform lengths.

 

[jon0844]

We know 378s can go in to Moorgate, so that's an option (and the interior design can of course be different) but I'd probably be happy - assuming they're sound structure wise - to have a Southern type refurbishment and see them run another 10-15 years.

To be honest, they're okay for the job. If they were all 6-car in the peaks (as most are) and they could get a few more to increase the frequency, I can't see many people complaining. I bet most people haven't got a clue that these (or indeed the Picadilly Line trains) were made in the 70s.

 

[electra27000]

We know 378s can go in to Moorgate, so that's an option (and the interior design can of course be different) but I'd probably be happy - assuming they're sound structure wise - to have a Southern type refurbishment and see them run another 10-15 years.

Has a 378 been to Moorgate, then?

 

[Aictos]

Has a 378 been to Moorgate, then?

Yes, on a night trials working when the NCL is closed to all.

 

[electra27000]

Yes, on a night trials working when the NCL is closed to all.

I don't suppose any images exist of the trials taking place, do they?

 

[Aictos]

I don't suppose any images exist of the trials taking place, do they?

Very much doubt it - sorry

 

[jon0844]

Look for the 378 with no roof and scratches all down the side.

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes, on a night trials working when the NCL is closed to all.

That's fairly good evidence that the gauge isn't specially restricted on the Moorgate branch then. Another regularly repeated railway myth busted?

 

[RobShipway]

If a class 378 Capitalstar managed to get to Moorgate, does that mean that there is no reason why a Siemens Class 350 or class 380 could not do the same?

The reason I ask is that I thought the order for Thameslink trains with Siemens was to replace all the FCC stock trains accept those that go to Kings Lynn which would be run by IEP in a few years time.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

That's fairly good evidence that the gauge isn't specially restricted on the Moorgate branch then. Another regularly repeated railway myth busted?

The gauge isn't restricted, but there's no room for OHLE, which is why the units are dual voltage.

 

[Aictos]

The gauge isn't restricted, but there's no room for OHLE, which is why the units are dual voltage.

You forget the platforms are also restricted to 6 car trains in length on the NCL as they're former Northern Line platforms, if it wasn't for that then I'm sure 8 car trains would have been the norm in the peaks on the Inners.

 

[tbtc]

So any dual voltage EMU which is two/three coaches long could work Moorgate?

 

[Aictos]

So any dual voltage EMU which is two/three coaches long could work Moorgate?

They would have to be to the same specification as the 378s though to ensure they would fit though the tunnels so doubtful the Desiros would be accepted.

Yes Siemens has got the contract for the Thameslink NXEMUs however Bombardier's 378 design is pretty much perfect as a replacement for the FCC 313s so ought to be awarded the contract to replace not only the FCC 313s but also supply new trains for Merseyrail.

I think this would benefit both companies hugely despite Bombardier's reputation for it's trains not being the best at times.

 

[Kingfisher200262]

You forget the platforms are also restricted to 6 car trains in length on the NCL as they're former Northern Line platforms, if it wasn't for that then I'm sure 8 car trains would have been the norm in the peaks on the Inners.

Do I? I only mentioned gauge, not length of train. So either 3-car units operating in multiple or fixed formation 6-cars seems to be the order of the day.

 

[causton]

Please, make it the latter... too many short-formed FCC trains at weekend evenings when it's packed! (Probably more of the fact that they're being serviced, but hey-ho)

 

[Hydro]

The gauge isn't restricted

Absolutely correct, there have been 73's and Mk1/2 stock down there on test runs. I think they did run as an "X" headcode due to opening windows, but that's no different to the Cumbrian Coast for example.

The only strict rule down Moorgate is no diesel engine running, hence ED's and the test coach generators being shut down and the kit run on UPS power.

 

[Aictos]

Do I? I only mentioned gauge, not length of train. So either 3-car units operating in multiple or fixed formation 6-cars seems to be the order of the day.

While fixed formation 6-cars would be ideal in the peaks, in the off peaks and at weekends, 3-cars operating either singly or in multiple is better unless the move to taken to use fixed formation 6-cars for all services.

 

[jon0844]

3-car services at weekends would probably be okay if they ran every 15 minutes, but they run every 30 and can't really cope with any events that may be taking place around the place that FCC isn't (and couldn't be expected to be) aware of.

 

[RobShipway]

3-car services at weekends would probably be okay if they ran every 15 minutes, but they run every 30 and can't really cope with any events that may be taking place around the place that FCC isn't (and couldn't be expected to be) aware of.

Would it be better to have a 5 car 378?

Or have them gangwayed at the ends, but have some 378's delievred both as3 car and 2 car units?

 

[causton]

Would it be better to have a 5 car 378?

Or have them gangwayed at the ends, but have some 378's delievred both as3 car and 2 car units?

The problem with that is then some services that now run as 3-car 313s will then run as 2 car 378s...

And I know full well which event Jon is talking about!

 

[RobShipway]

The problem with that is then some services that now run as 3-car 313s will then run as 2 car 378s...

And I know full well which event Jon is talking about!

I had thought about asking whether it should 5 car and three car with gangways, but then realised that you would not be able to get an 8 car Capitalstar in Moorgate Station or would you?

 

[causton]

Probably not... however, there *is* the overrun tunnel and I don't know how far that goes down on both platforms but if it's just a few metres in it there could be an extension with a slightly narrower platform...


However, 313s are fine - the only thing missing is a PIS!