FCC : Another 'worse' Title

[F Great Eastern]

that may well be but they have dropped 6% since the last NPS and are only 1% off the bottom with Abellio's sister franchise......says a lot about the management doesn't it!

They may have dropped, but as someone who uses the line on a regular basis, I really think they're an improvement on what went before, they're still nowhere near the way things were when we had Anglia Railways and First Great Eastern on that side of the franchise, but they're better than National Express.

 

[jon0844]

Another very valid point which feeds into the NPS when you read them, is that it uo to the TOCs and ROSCOs to stipulate refurbs etc.....and 000s of passengers are clearly unhappy with the performance of certains TOCs in this area.....

Besides the 379s falling to bits in about two years, I went to Stratford on a refreshed 321 and it looked like a new train. Shows the old trains can easily outlast the modern stuff.

So, if you think GA should be doing up its fleet, it would seem that it really needs to start on its newest trains!

The old ones are still filthy but that's years of dirt and unless they can easily take stock out to do it up, it's a case of running less trains or just doing the work gradually.

You've had this explained many times so the fact you ignore it to slag off a company you simply don't like just proves the point about commuters just moaning for the sake of it!

 

[ginger]

Besides the 379s falling to bits in about two years, I went to Stratford on a refreshed 321 and it looked like a new train. Shows the old trains can easily outlast the modern stuff.

So, if you think GA should be doing up its fleet, it would seem that it really needs to start on its newest trains!

The old ones are still filthy but that's years of dirt and unless they can easily take stock out to do it up, it's a case of running less trains or just doing the work gradually.

You've had this explained many times so the fact you ignore it to slag off a company you simply don't like just proves the point about commuters just moaning for the sake of it!

and you wonder why 000s of GA customers complain? 321 refresh? cheap, nasty, poor quality.....but I guess all these photos are fabricated?

ALL of the stock is simply not looked after.....that is the sole resposibilty of the TOC.....Abellios consistently appalling standard and penny pinching are the reson 000s of people have voted them at the bottom.....they are fast turning into the new National Express of the railway network.....

http://www.greaterangliacomplaints.co.uk/ga-pics/

The evidence is stacking up against Abellio but carry on wearing your rose tinted specs!

 

[tbtc]

I went to Stratford on a refreshed 321 and it looked like a new train

Good news.

I've not been on one (yet), so positive to hear that the refurb makes them feel modern (given the amount of complaining we're going to get about refurbished 315s/ 319s etc along the lines of "why are we getting cast off trains that are too old for London" that I can imagine hearing a lot from enthusiasts over the rest of this decade).

 

[jon0844]

Here's a pic I took.

Clean, fresh, bright and all you can ask for from something that has to accommodate the 'great unwashed' that will do everything they can to wreck it!

Clearly stripping it out completely, adding sockets, aircon, Wi-Fi etc would be nice but this is a refresh, not a rebuild.

I'd live to know how 000s are unhappy with that. I bet they're talking about the old trains that NatEx failed to even deep clean, not these.

BTW, given the state of some of the 379s already, including broken buttons, worn seats, dirty wall panels inside, filthy vinyls outside, Wi-Fi that you can connect to but not access the Internet (DNS issues) etc, what would you recommend GA does? Let's say you took over the franchise tomorrow... Go!

 

[ginger]

Here's a pic I took.

Clean, fresh, bright and all you can ask for from something that has to accommodate the 'great unwashed' that will do everything they can to wreck it!

so you have completely ignored all the pictures of the seats falling to bits, panels not fitted properly and filthy, blown windows?

sigh.......rose tinted specs......you must work for Abellio? you cant be a shareholder as it's the wholly unaccountable Dutch taxpayer.....

but again you are ignoring the simple facts......Abellio are the new NX.....2 out of the 2 worst TOCS....

read the NPS results......interestingly Passenger Focus actually say that FCC have been badly affected by the recent infrastructure issues and failures.......if that had not happened they would have improved........GA and Northern Rail (both Abellio) has consistently been both falling and failing in most of the areas customers vote for.....

these are the views of 000s of people paying sky high fares for what? appalling service and trains from certain people.....

these 000s of hard working people paying a fortune are consistently voting Abellio as the new NX!

pop your rose tinted specs back on.............the rest of the country is taking a realistic view on their performance.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Here's a pic I took.

Clean, fresh, bright and all you can ask for from something that has to accommodate the 'great unwashed' that will do everything they can to wreck it!

Clearly stripping it out completely, adding sockets, aircon, Wi-Fi etc would be nice but this is a refresh, not a rebuild.

I'd live to know how 000s are unhappy with that. I bet they're talking about the old trains that NatEx failed to even deep clean, not these.

BTW, given the state of some of the 379s already, including broken buttons, worn seats, dirty wall panels inside, filthy vinyls outside, Wi-Fi that you can connect to but not access the Internet (DNS issues) etc, what would you recommend GA does? Let's say you took over the franchise tomorrow... Go!

right.....your specific points.....

68 carriages out of appx 1,000 given an appalling cheap nasty quick makeover that falls to bits in 5 mins....substandard and poor quality.....responsibility? TOC...GA.....work carried out by? TOC to save money.....

379s - responsibility? Bombardier and TOC.....cheap build clearly BUT TOC....GA .....has the responsibility to maintain the trains.....do they? NO!

Contract? Major refurbs? errrrr nothing signed? responsibility? Abellio and the DFT......both!

Deep clean? oh please! apart from the last year of NXEA each unit got a deep clean once every 2 months........Abellio / GA? lots of spin about a once a year deep clean but it hasnt even touched the sides......that is if it is actually even carried out - REFER PHOTOS......the trains are FILTHY

Ludicrous company that SIMPLY DOES NOT LOOK AFTER TRAINS.......

funny that.....dont they purport to being a professional TRAIN operating company? Clearly not!

 

[tbtc]

Cheers for the picture Jon - looks a professional job - if the cascaded units leaving London over the rest of the decade (due to Thameslink/ Crossrail etc) look like that then I think (non-enthusiast) people think they are getting modern trains (like the EMT refurbs of 158s).

Well played GA.

 

[Manchester77]

Ginger the Flickr pictures on that link all showed ex-NSE 321s, 360s, 315s and mark IIIs. These are all being refurbished across the course of the franchise, maybe you should remove your rosé tinted glasses...

 

[jon0844]

@Ginger, I have other pictures but they have my son in them, but from the totally unedited picture I posted, please point what is broken?

Windows, seats, ceiling, walls, lights... All look just fine to me. What's more, the journey from LST to SRA was more than five minutes and it didn't fall to bits.

Sorry my actual experience differs from your story.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk HD

 

[ginger]

@Ginger, I have other pictures but they have my son in them, but from the totally unedited picture I posted, please point what is broken?

Windows, seats, ceiling, walls, lights... All look just fine to me. What's more, the journey from LST to SRA was more than five minutes and it didn't fall to bits.

Sorry my actual experience differs from your story.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk HD

if you look through the pictures you will see a large amount of the "refreshed" 321s that are alreayd failing to bits.....

https://twitter.com/Delayed_Again/media/grid

 

[jon0844]

Half of the pics are duplicates, but the close ups are of things that might be 4 or 5 inches long at most. I expect the train is still quite structurally sound, so don't panic.

All seat bases from that era are wooden, and draughts are another feature of 317, 318, 319s etc.

Finally, gum on the carpet... Really? That's the fault of a TOC? You're clutching at straws now.

Sent from my SGP311 using Tapatalk HD

 

[SF-02]

Besides the 379s falling to bits in about two years, I went to Stratford on a refreshed 321 and it looked like a new train. Shows the old trains can easily outlast the modern stuff.

So, if you think GA should be doing up its fleet, it would seem that it really needs to start on its newest trains!

The old ones are still filthy but that's years of dirt and unless they can easily take stock out to do it up, it's a case of running less trains or just doing the work gradually.

You've had this explained many times so the fact you ignore it to slag off a company you simply don't like just proves the point about commuters just moaning for the sake of it!

Hmmm hard to defend them too much though when the first thing they did was withdraw some 317's which could perhaps have been used as cover to clean/refurb those old ones you describe which are filthy.

Often on here some people accuse others of moaning for the sake of it or not understanding. Sure, some do, but some understand and do give leeway to the TOC and understand they are heavily constricted, and yet do see behaviour and actions which are below par and which can be alleviated by the TOC, which isn't the fault of the DfT, and they can be berated for it as a sort of defensive reflex action.

Hard to tell in this instance. Some do look like stains people will make and is hard for a TOC to clean immediately and they cannot be blamed. But IF there is a more widespread problem, letting 317s go off lease and not withdrawing others to clean is a missed opportunity.

 

[F Great Eastern]

The 360's were not former Network SouthEast they were new to FGE. The seats are badly fading on most of them now along with the carpets but other than that I still think they are in good condition

First Great Eastern gave the ex NSE 321's a very thorough and good quality refurbishment from around 2000-2002 if I remember correctly which lasted pretty well, but in the last few years have started to show their age a bit, but it's now 12 years since a lot of them have been refurbished and need to be redone again.

The 321's that came in from Silverlink during the National Express era were in far worse condition that the ones that were refurbished by FGE. I was in a train in 2009 with 4 cars of Silverlink interior and 4 cars FGE and the difference between them was staggering quality wise, but true in an ideal world they all nee doing.

The MK3's were refurbished my National Express East Anglia, although it consisted of little more than changing seat rags, and the fittings on the luggage racks and some stickers on the internal doors and a relivery. In First class even less was done and they look almost identical to what they were in Virgin days.

The 379's however, are suffering from poor build quality and I was on some when almost brand new and they rattled and creaked and made noises, really was surprised, to see that on such a new train.

 

[northwichcat]

I've not been on one (yet), so positive to hear that the refurb makes them feel modern (given the amount of complaining we're going to get about refurbished 315s/ 319s etc along the lines of "why are we getting cast off trains that are too old for London" that I can imagine hearing a lot from enthusiasts over the rest of this decade).

One of the complaints with 319s in the North West is some of the services that'll switch to 319s aren't even full 2 car 142s currently, while others are 4 car 150s with standees and platform constraints won't allow 8 car operation without SDO. Porterbrook have unveiled plans for making some of the 319s 3 car with corridor connectors but it remains to be seen whether that will go ahead. If it does and they get a full internal refit then they will give the impression of being modern trains.

What would be interesting to see would be costings of making other trains suitable for North West operation instead e.g. the same work on 321s instead of 319s, reformed 377s going North etc.

 

[jon0844]

Hmmm hard to defend them too much though when the first thing they did was withdraw some 317's which could perhaps have been used as cover to clean/refurb those old ones you describe which are filthy.

Yes, that is a valid criticism. However they might now be totally refitted and therefore suitable for use.

 

[tbtc]

One of the complaints with 319s in the North West is some of the services that'll switch to 319s aren't even full 2 car 142s currently

Which ones, out of interest?

 

[northwichcat]

Which ones, out of interest?

Some of the off-peak stoppers between Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street are single 142s and have spare seats.

4 cars will be a lot of capacity compared to the current loadings on most of the Chat Moss services.

4 car trains on some off-peak Manchester/Liverpool to Preston/Blackpool services can be justified but 4 cars at peak time assumes no growth or a crush loading.

 

[tbtc]

Some of the off-peak stoppers between Earlestown and Liverpool Lime Street are single 142s and have spare seats.

4 cars will be a lot of capacity compared to the current loadings on most of the Chat Moss services.

4 car trains on some off-peak Manchester/Liverpool to Preston/Blackpool services can be justified but 4 cars at peak time assumes no growth or a crush loading.

Cheers for explaining.

I think that the main capacity problem is going to be the Bolton corridor, and that the best way of dealing with it would be to cut some services at Bolton (i.e. more four coach EMUs on the Manchester - Bolton route, with a connecting two coach DMU running Bolton to Wigan (etc), rather than two coaches from Manchester to Bolton.

It wouldn't solve the problem of four coach DMUs being replaced by four coach EMUs (which, as you say, adds little capacity, esp with disabled toilets etc), but would mean that nothing runs from Bolton to Manchester shorter than four coaches at rush hour.

 

[jon0844]

Nicer trains might of course result in an increase in usage though.

 

[northwichcat]

I think that the main capacity problem is going to be the Bolton corridor, and that the best way of dealing with it would be to cut some services at Bolton (i.e. more four coach EMUs on the Manchester - Bolton route, with a connecting two coach DMU running Bolton to Wigan (etc), rather than two coaches from Manchester to Bolton.

Manchester Airport-Bolton-Wigan-Southport services are mainly 4 car DMUs now as are some of the busiest Kirby/Wigan terminators. Although, these 4 car workings are quite often 4 car Pacers so there could be a capacity increase by going to 4 car Sprinters. There are also some 3/4 car DMU (mainly Sprinter) workings on the busiest Victoria-Bolton-Blackburn/Clitheroe services.

With there unlikely to be spare EMUs and Clitheroe and Southport services from Bolton only hourly I don't think your idea of having diesel trains starting/terminating at Bolton would go down that well
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nicer trains might of course result in an increase in usage though.

Don't forget the Liverpool-Man Airport services are mainly class 156s currently so if non-refurbished 319s (or 317/7s) turn up initially the only advantages would be the extra room and the quieter running.

With some of the Chat Moss services a 4 car 319 could be seen as an adequately sized train for the foreseeable future, unlike when the 3 car 185s were introduced on TPE services.

With the Bolton corridor being the last bit of the North West triangle to go over to electric there might be an increase in passenger numbers before electrification is completed. So the services with c.300 passengers on board may go up to c.330 passengers on board before replacement trains are introduced then we'll be in the same position as when 3 car 185s went on TPE routes.

 

[EM2]

ginger (you didn't want to add 'ted'?) - who are these thousands that you keep referring to? Where is your evidence of 'thousands'?
It's like the anti-FCC twitterer called @FirstCommuter, who insists that thousands are dissatisfied, yet has just over 1200 followers (many of whom I suspect to be bots or dormant accounts).

 

[jon0844]

I presume the Twitter account Ginger links to is his own.

 

[GatwickDepress]

ginger (you didn't want to add 'ted'?) - who are these thousands that you keep referring to? Where is your evidence of 'thousands'?
It's like the anti-FCC twitterer called @FirstCommuter, who insists that thousands are dissatisfied, yet has just over 1200 followers (many of whom I suspect to be bots or dormant accounts).

It's far more likely thousands are dissatisfied and the average customer just has better things to do than follow some minor Twitter account!

I do think that as far customer satisfaction goes, there will be a small cross-section of passengers - mainly commuters - who will be dissatisfied with the railway no matter what. It's just another barrier between work and home. Perhaps those could number in the thousands for FCC. I don't envy anybody working for them, to be honest. I've never seen any member of staff - bar the drivers - smile.

 

[CC 72100]

All seat bases from that era are wooden, and draughts are another feature of 317, 318, 319s etc.

Finally, gum on the carpet... Really? That's the fault of a TOC? You're clutching at straws now.

Indeed. And some of the pictures of the mark 3s are just.... well standard mark 3s. I understand they could do with a refurb, but some things are a bit too much - I mean, one was of a toilet out of use. Big deal. Or the door that (to quote the caption) "looks like it is about to fall apart" Ummm no, that's just a panel that needs a bit of pushing back into place and isn't even the outerskin. Slight marks below the Lighting controls in the vestibule (15 Nov). Really?

Some of them seem way over the top. I'm sure I could find equal photos for the TOCs I regularly use, but guess what, I live in the real understand and can tell the difference between a grubby mark and a major inconvenience!

 

[EM2]

I presume the Twitter account Ginger links to is his own.

Then he's been having conversations with himself
It seems an almighty coincidence that one of GA's biggest critics on Twitter has a username that includes 'ginger' and writes tweets in a similar style. Having said that, it's been quiet for a while.

 

[ginger]

ginger (you didn't want to add 'ted'?) - who are these thousands that you keep referring to? Where is your evidence of 'thousands'?
It's like the anti-FCC twitterer called @FirstCommuter, who insists that thousands are dissatisfied, yet has just over 1200 followers (many of whom I suspect to be bots or dormant accounts).

maybe these 000s of regular, fare paying customers?

http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/G...tory-18210935-detail/story.html#axzz2X7aOuIVU

 

[EM2]

maybe these 000s of regular, fare paying customers?

http://www.thisistotalessex.co.uk/G...tory-18210935-detail/story.html#axzz2X7aOuIVU

The 7,500 referred to in that piece was for the whole survey, not for GA. The figure for GA was, in fact, 342 people: http://www.which.co.uk/home-and-gar...train-companies/best-train-companies-overall/
To put it in context, that's not even a full class 315.

 

[A-driver]

I think this morning says a lot as to the problems FCC face and why they come last in these surveys.

This morning was no fault of FCCs. Network rails Hitchin flyover blockade over ran horribly delaying the first few trains on the GN by up to an hour leading to stock and crews out of position and lots of delays and cancellations through the morning.

FCCs twitter feed was full of rude and ill-informed accusations about how bad FCC is at planning engineering works, how lazy FCCs staff are not to have got the work done overnight etc.

Communication was actually as good as it could have been as quite simply they didn't know when they could start running trains again.

So through no fault of FCCs they have had another day of criticism wrongly aimed at them.

 

[jon0844]

I'm in Sweden but got the text alert from FCC this morning about over running work.

It beggars belief that some regular users don't know that FCC doesn't own or maintain the track, thus is responsible for the delay.

Haven't they ever seen a Network Rail logo around the place, on a van or uniformed member of staff working at their station? Or do they have their heads glued to their iPhone/copy of Metro?!

 

[455driver]

Or do they have their heads glued to their iPhone/copy of Metro?!

Is the correct answer!