FCC : Another 'worse' Title

[Mutant Lemming]

"The lowest-scoring operators for overall satisfaction in the latest survey were Northern and First Capital Connect which both had figures of 76 per cent"

"The highest-scoring company was First Hull Trains with 95 per cent"

Having used all regularly I would concur.
How can parts of the same company differ so widely ?
Okay, I know FCC and Hull Trains are different kinds of operation but the whole attitude and ethos is SO different. Is it the 'small is beautiful concept' ? Should we break the system up more? ..or is it just that the whole set up at FCC needs changing?

 

[Nym]

I think it's mainly that when First is on their own, on an operation from startup / franchise start then they have problems, if it's been baught in, or operated with a close partner (Keolis / Transport Scotland / GBRailways) then they're not too bad.

 

[ert47]

Hazard a guess that Thameslink was part of the reason behind FCC having such a low score...

 

[anti-pacer]

"The lowest-scoring operators for overall satisfaction in the latest survey were Northern and First Capital Connect which both had figures of 76 per cent"

Northern? Not scoring highly on a customer satisfaction survey?

Really?

 

[asylumxl]

To be honest, I think people on TL just like to complain. I am a TL commuter myself and I hear them whinge and whine endlessly on my travels.

From experience on various social media, the majority will not listen to facts either and prefer just to continue a hate campaign against First for things that aren't in their control.

 

[transmanche]

How can parts of the same company differ so widely ?
Okay, I know FCC and Hull Trains are different kinds of operation but the whole attitude and ethos is SO different. Is it the 'small is beautiful concept' ? Should we break the system up more? ..or is it just that the whole set up at FCC needs changing?

I suspect that most commuter-focused franchises will always struggle to get a good score.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I suspect that most commuter-focused franchises will always struggle to get a good score.

there is that I guess, but theres is almost definately the views of people like me who sinply hate first and everything they do and stand for.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northern? Not scoring highly on a customer satisfaction survey?

Really?

they deserve better. Granted I'm no fan of Serco but done many a mile with them and have never once had a problem and am a little sick of the anti northern atitudes of so many round here.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

To be honest, I think people on TL just like to complain. I am a TL commuter myself and I hear them whinge and whine endlessly on my travels.

From experience on various social media, the majority will not listen to facts either and prefer just to continue a hate campaign against First for things that aren't in their control.

It's the 'Don't Give a Toss' attitude they have when things go wrong. I recall waiting at St.Pancras having come back from the North-East during snow - only to end up hanging around for a train home the last 10 miles longer than it took me to get back from Newcastle. No apologies, continually being strung along about when the next train would be.... I mention that incident because it was the final straw for me. I could add many many more but that was the one that made me decide not to renew my season ticket and drive to work and I still do - unfortunately the missus still has to suffer not being able to cram on to 4 car trains during the rush hour, getting home late (over an hour late home twice this week already)... and to add insult to it all they have a revenue squad out for kill (unless the prey is bigger and/or harder than them). Maybe many do jump on the moaning bandwagon but they don't have the 'worse' reputation without good reason.

 

[beeza1]

they deserve better. Granted I'm no fan of Serco but done many a mile with them and have never once had a problem and am a little sick of the anti northern atitudes of so many round here.

I take it you haven't used the Huddersfield to Sheffield service, most of the equipment is fit for the scrapyard, and is frequently late, I feel sorry for the staff who have to work with this "junk", it may explain why some of them are such grumpy sods.
I use the local services in the midlands quite often, London Midland, Chiltern, XC, and all their trains make Northern's look like museum pieces.

 

[jnjkerbin]

If you want to read the full report, you can download it in pdf format here

Its amazing what a good image outside of the railways can do for certain people *cough* Virgin *cough* innocent face

 

[anti-pacer]

they deserve better. Granted I'm no fan of Serco but done many a mile with them and have never once had a problem and am a little sick of the anti northern atitudes of so many round here.

Move to the North of England then and use their trains on a daily basis before slamming those of us who are disgruntled with their shoddy service!

 

[asylumxl]

I recall waiting at St.Pancras having come back from the North-East during snow - only to end up hanging around for a train home the last 10 miles longer than it took me to get back from Newcastle. No apologies, continually being strung along about when the next train would be....

Was the core open? How was the weather both north and south of the river when you arrived? Were you traveling north or south?

 

[big_dirt]

I am a TL commuter within London and I find the service fine but I do have options if things go wrong.

The service is at such a high frequency that if something goes slightly wrong, the whole system starts to snarl up. There are trains every 10 - 15 minutes. If a train is five minutes late, the people for the following train get on the earlier train and they then get very busy very quickly.

The trains are so busy that my only interaction with staff is the driver making announcements.

So, what can be done to improve? Newer trains with aircon, not FCC's fault. More frequent service, not FCC's fault.

Maybe the issues are to do with non-commuting times but I find FCC to be satisfactory. No more, no less.

 

[jon0844]

That's the thing. So many complaints are a) Not the fault of FCC and b) would be NO different if someone else ran it.

We all know Virgin wouldn't dare take on a commuter service, but IF it did, I expect we'd see a very slick PR campaign to turn opinions around. First doesn't seem to do this.

Yes, they have the propaganda posters at stations to show the 'real people' that care (and I've seen some of these people so know they DO exist) but do people take any notice, or just get all cynical and say it's a crock of **** and carry on moaning? Yup.

Lack of info when things go wrong is the common problem with FCC, always has been and always will be. A lack of information about upcoming engineering work also seems to be an issue, when they opt to just say 'check our website' instead of relaying basic information on their 'live' information systems.

But even if FCC worked harder on that, the fact is that sooner or later it will need to resort to the tactics of any big business - PR and marketing - to turn opinions around. Ironically, such spending would probably improve ratings - but also cost more money better used for other things!

 

[transmanche]

Move to the North of England then and use their trains on a daily basis before slamming those of us who are disgruntled with their shoddy service!

Well I do travel with Northern on a regular (albeit not daily basis).

I find the staff friendly, stations smart, the trains reasonably clean inside (but grubby outside), nearly all the trains I've been on lately have been recently refreshed. The 156s are very pleasant for a non-aircon unit - and it's been ages since I last travelled on a 3+2 bus seat Pacer.

Yes the Pacers are a horrible train and should have been sent to the scrapyard ages ago. I can dream of having a 17x on my regular routes - heck I'd love a 165/166. However we are where we are.

But then I travel on Northern in NE England and rarely in other parts of their area.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Was the core open? How was the weather both north and south of the river when you arrived? Were you traveling north or south?

Trains were running North but they decided to run them fast and let all stations passengers have a two hour wait hoping they would all go away. Fine if they had told us that in the first place - some threatened to mutiny by pulling the handle on one of the fasts but were threatened by police action if they did.
A series of lame excuses were given as to why three Northbound trains ran fast while local passengers had a two hour wait.
FCC would need to do an awful lot to prise me out of my car for the commute to work now. My door to door journey time is half what it was, I am not crammed in standing for the duration and it costs me less - but then I doubt they really give a monkeys anyway.

 

[northern156]

In my opinion, Northern's service is not shoddy one bit. Yes they do have delays (especially on the Cumbrian Coast as of late) but to be fair, which TOC doesn't? Most delays are out of Northern Rail's control.
Plus I don't see what the real issue is with using pacers. We all know they are loud, give poor ride quality etc etc but what else do you expect from a TOC that gets mostly 2nd hand stock from other operators? The way Northern have maintained 142/4s up until now is very good; even the 180s when given to Northern were much more reliable!

I can imagine there would be merry hell played by commuters if Northern got rid of their older stock (because there are such a high number of trains Northern "should" get rid of, it would be rather expensive to do so!) which would almost certainly result in much more cancellations.

Right, I shall put my H&S Exec-verified protective headwear back on before I get things thrown at me

Sean

 

[Blindtraveler]

I take it you haven't used the Huddersfield to Sheffield service, most of the equipment is fit for the scrapyard, and is frequently late, I feel sorry for the staff who have to work with this "junk", it may explain why some of them are such grumpy sods.
I use the local services in the midlands quite often, London Midland, Chiltern, XC, and all their trains make Northern's look like museum pieces.

not often Im afraid and old there trains maybe but they have the devils own job to do to make them run and the fact they havnt given up yet scores points with me. You get grumpy staff0in any industry Id wager.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Move to the North of England then and use their trains on a daily basis before slamming those of us who are disgruntled with their shoddy service!

excuse me? i dont recall
slamming
anyone. This is a forum for discussing and sharing views. You dont like pacers or Northern, I accept that, but I do think its a bit shamefull that so many on here use a short formed bus seat 142 on there journey home as an excuse to give the entire toc a hard time.
They opperate everything from loss making rural services to wedged full commuter routes and IMHO manage it well given what they have to manage with. I certainly dont think from my own experience that they handle disruption nearly as badly as FCC or Scotrail!

 

[asylumxl]

A series of lame excuses were given as to why three Northbound trains ran fast while local passengers had a two hour wait.

So can I assume you live in the Borehamwood or Mill Hill area? Was the Northern Line not running?

South of Radlett there are alternatives as I'm sure you know. For Borehamwood there is Barnet/Edgeware/Watford and a variety of buses. Further north there aren't so many alternatives so that's obviously the logic behind the decision.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Well I do travel with Northern on a regular (albeit not daily basis).

I find the staff friendly, stations smart, the trains reasonably clean inside (but grubby outside), nearly all the trains I've been on lately have been recently refreshed. The 156s are very pleasant for a non-aircon unit - and it's been ages since I last travelled on a 3+2 bus seat Pacer.

Yes the Pacers are a horrible train and should have been sent to the scrapyard ages ago. I can dream of having a 17x on my regular routes - heck I'd love a 165/166. However we are where we are.

But then I travel on Northern in NE England and rarely

just wanted to agree with this posting

 

[beeza1]

not often Im afraid and old there trains maybe but they have the devils own job to do to make them run and the fact they havnt given up yet scores points with me. You get grumpy staff0in any industry Id wager.

If they are so bad why don't they replace them? other TOC's do, all they seem to get is someone else's "cast offs", I suppose it's down to whoever allowed them a "no improvement" franchise, pity that didn't apply to dividends, profits were down by 9% last year, yet shareholder dividends rose by almost 25%.

Yes you do get grumpy staff in every industry, but most are not in a customer facing role.

 

[broadgage]

IME, FCC are by far the worst of any TOC that I use regularly.
Unreliable, inaccurate information, overcrowded, general bad attitude and unhelpfull, and gets still worse if it is windy or rains, and more or less gives up if it snows.

And this is not an anti First Group rant, I find FGW generally good.

When it was announced that First Group had won the West Coast franchise, IMHO a lot of the "anti first group" ranting was in fact anti FCC ranting.
Any regular victim of FCC would be horrified at that lot running trains to Scotland. Some probably expected 4 car class 319s to Scotland, standing only, dont moan you are lucky to get a train at all !

 

[Blindtraveler]

moving back on topic, I must agree with whoever said that on there own F not only stands for First but also for Fail. GW had a lot of teathing issues and although Crapital Disconnect got said nickname for an anthology of issues outwith there controll the basic bits Re customer Information etc etc are pritty vital and often overlooked.
When in fly into Luton from Edinburgh I am going from one First Group TOC to another and although Scotrail are far from brilliant esp at times of disruption they are, due to Transport Scotland far better and a perfectly acceptible company to travel with regularly.
For me, the idea of being a regular user of FCC is painfull but I wooder if anybody else could do better? Would it all be happy ever after if the 319s were reliveried in say Stagecoach swoops?

 

[tbtc]

I suppose it's down to whoever allowed them a "no improvement" franchise

One which has seen a 30% increase in capacity since they took over?

 

[Bedpan]

So can I assume you live in the Borehamwood or Mill Hill area? Was the Northern Line not running?

South of Radlett there are alternatives as I'm sure you know. For Borehamwood there is Barnet/Edgeware/Watford and a variety of buses. Further north there aren't so many alternatives so that's obviously the logic behind the decision.

Are you saying that his late arrival home was his own fault as he should have known how awful FCC are and that it was highly likely that they wouldn't run a stopper for two hours - even though they weren't saying so - and should therefore have made alternative travel arrangements to get home from St Pancras. It's all very well making the decision to run 3 fasts with no slows in between, but how are people supposed to know that is what is going to happen if they aren't told?

 

[Blindtraveler]

which is, I think, the problem FCC fail to grasp the solution too!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If they are so bad why don't they replace them? other TOC's do, all they seem to get is someone else's "cast offs", I suppose it's down to whoever allowed them a "no improvement" franchise,....

Because they can't, even if we assume the lesser cost of maintenance and better fuel efficiency of new units offsets the higher leasing and track access charges (which I doubt), Northern would have to agree any new stock orders with DfT.

 

[A-driver]

In relation to staffing and their attitude, FCC are so desperate to save money that staff moral is at rock bottom. Staff don't care-and why should we when the company very obviously doesn't.

People have impossible jobs-the company put as few staff on doing more than practice. Take the station dispatcher at WGC for example- he dispatches all trains on platforms 3&4. In the peak and at weekends the southbound stopper and northbound mainline stopper run within minutes of each other. If the northbound is a minute or 2 late then the dispatcher can't dispatch both it and the southbound at once so they both end up going late.

In disruption very little information is fed down to front line staff and what is often changed so what you have just told a passenger will be incorrect 5 mins later so you then look stupid when they come back up to you asking why you lied to them. It is FCCs biggest weakness but as a driver I have ended up on hold for upto 2mims during disruption trying to find out if my train is running.

With drivers the work is getting to the impractical point. There are inner suburban jobs on the GN with 5 hours in the chair, no toilet breaks, absolutely minimum 20min breaks, 5 min turn arounds combined with overcrowding and very poor dispatch equipment so trains will run late weather because the driver can't see if doors are clear, the pan takes a little while to go up/down at Drayton park or because the human being at the front needs a wee after 3 hours and so pops to the loo when changing ends which can't be done in the given 5 mins.

And I know I will get shouted down for this and I know it's a 2 way street but the attitude of staff has a lot to do with the completely moral-less passengers on the routes. Thameslink is worse but the GN can be just as bad. I have never had people being as rude to me as I have on FCC. Passengers in the past have sworn at me, made snide remarks under their breath and even personal insults about appearance etc. which is unacceptable and uncalled for. It's not my fault that the train is late or cancelled. It's also not my fault that the timetable doesn't suit you and my train dosnt stop at your station even if you have been waiting 20mins for a train. If people speak to me in the way that many do then sorry but I'm not going to be particularly helpful in my reply and I make no apology for that. If people spoke to police officers in the way they speak to us they would be arrested!

In general though FCC has a rough deal. The line and stock is taking a lot longer to 'improve' or modernise than was planned and in the meantime no one will spend money as change is just around the corner. There is no point installing PIDs and air on on 319s etc as new trains are on the way. If First lost the franchise tomorrow and someone else-even virgin-took over then absolutely nothing would change. The infrastructure and trains would still breakdown, fatalitys would still happen, there would still be occasional driver shortages, there would still be congestion and overcrowding and fares would still be as high.

 

[asylumxl]

Are you saying that his late arrival home was his own fault as he should have known how awful FCC are and that it was highly likely that they wouldn't run a stopper for two hours - even though they weren't saying so - and should therefore have made alternative travel arrangements to get home from St Pancras. It's all very well making the decision to run 3 fasts with no slows in between, but how are people supposed to know that is what is going to happen if they aren't told?

After an hour I would certainly start to think of alternatives.

Is that not logical?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I agree that FCC is by no means the best TOC out there, but a lot of their problems they inherited from the last operator and to be fair to them, they've added extra trains and increased capacity where it has been possible on what is a very overcrowded line.

The Thameslink Saga, continually delayed and everything taking far too long to complete (just look at the rolling stock order), has really handicapped them to a large extent, with little they can do about it. But many commuters don't understand the way the railway works so think that it's as simple as FCC going and buying trains tomorrow if they wanted.