Favourite Modern Tram System

[WestCoast]

I am a huge fan of trams and light rail systems. I was just wondering what people thought was the best "new" system in the UK & Ireland.

In continental Europe trams are extremely widespread, my favourite system has to be Amsterdam - just because it's an enormous network.

The modern systems to choose from are Dublin LUAS, Croydon Tramlink, Sheffield Supertram, Nottingham Express Transit, Manchester Metrolink and Midland Metro.

I've been on all of them and was most impressed by Sheffield and Dublin. Nottingham is also very good but it's just not extensive enough!

Metrolink in Manchester isn't much of a tram network really is it? On-street running is very limited. It'll be far better after the expansion.

Midland Metro doesn't seem to be all that useful.

 

[Neilandrewhall]

Like the Manchester Metro, Croydon and Nottingham are the only one's ive ever used in my time and I must say, that the best ive traveled on is the Manchester Metro, with the Nottingham tram they don't like you eating, and if there is a guard he won't let you on if you've got food which I think is stupid, Where as the Manchester Metro is quite frequent and has a good network.

 

[Mojo]

Nottingham Express Transit is the real success story for the regional cities.

Manchester Metrolink is a very good case study for the real economic benefits and modal shift that light rail can bring (and that other modes cannot).

Sheffield Supertram is an example of how NOT to build a tram system (but seems to have no problems now it's up and running), and also shows that on-street running is all not that bad, and that contrary to the popular belief, shows that cities with hills can have trams!

Croydon shows the problems with running short trams and charging low fares (overcrowding), but also how to meet the needs of people on routes of built up high public transport demand but with poor public transport service provision.

Midland Metro shows the importance of properly penetrating the city centres in which they serve and why it's not always a good idea to just pick a route on which it is easy to build on in order to prove a concept.

Edit: Oh, I see there's a poll! I can't really vote on it, as I love them all equally!

 

[WestCoast]

Nottingham Express Transit is the real success story for the regional cities.

Yes, it's a very good line but the expansion is taking forever!

Sheffield Supertram is an example of how NOT to build a tram system (but seems to have no problems now it's up and running), and also shows that on-street running is all not that bad, and that contrary to the popular belief, shows that cities with hills can have trams!

I know that Supertram wasn't liked at first - what would you say the reasons were for it being an example not to follow (I don't know much about the network history)?. It seems well-liked now though and patronage is high.

Manchester Metrolink is a very good case study for the real economic benefits and modal shift that light rail can bring (and that other modes cannot).

It definitely came at the right time, patronage is high and it does serve places well. To me, it's still more of a metro system than a tram system.
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Like the Manchester Metro, Croydon and Nottingham are the only one's ive ever used in my time and I must say, that the best ive traveled on is the Manchester Metro, with the Nottingham tram they don't like you eating, and if there is a guard he won't let you on if you've got food which I think is stupid, Where as the Manchester Metro is quite frequent and has a good network.

Well, the conductors (not called guards on trams ) are just enforcing the rules on the NET, it's frequent and more modern too. I think the public prefer onboard conductors but I fail to see how they can work on busy services (packed Metrolink trams would never cope with a conductor to collect fares IMO).

 

[Mojo]

I know that Supertram wasn't liked at first - what would you say the reasons were for it being an example not to follow (I don't know much about the network history)?. It seems well-liked now though and patronage is high.

Issues were disruption and roadworks during construction (also see Edinburgh Trams), and the lack of tram priority meaning trams used to get caught in traffic.

 

[WestCoast]

Issues were disruption and roadworks during construction (also see Edinburgh Trams), and the lack of tram priority meaning trams used to get caught in traffic.

I see, but this was only the second new era light-rail project and the first modern network to involve considerable amounts of on-street running, so there were bound to be issues.

NET got to see lessons-learned.

 

[WatcherZero]

Sheffield have also done a pretty major rebuild of their relativley young (10 year old at the time) fleet to increase reliability (and the improvement shows), very important as their operating a timetable with only one operational reserve. Midland Metro T69 have done a complete rewiring of theirs but their still relatively unreliable which is why they want a compleatly new fleet. Their sisters in Manchester the T68 have the same reliability and wiring issues and have had a small refit programme replacing mechanical components with more reliable ones as well as adding CCTV and replacing the flip out side mirrors with cameras and lcd screens thats increased their MDBSF from the appalling 2,360 miles to 5,000 but their still waiting on their first major refurbishment which should take them back to their original 10,000 (a pilot has just been approved to take one apart temporarily and check the level of corrosion to narrow down the cost and extent of the refurb), as a comparison the new M5000 have an MDBSF of 20,000 miles. If memory serves none of the other UK systems have done any overhauls.

 

[Ivo]

Nottingham edges Manchester for me. Nottingham is a model system with a nice route and optimistic expansion ideas. On the other hand, the latter feels too congested inside the vehicles (only been on an M5000 once though, so don't have a go at me for that); hopefully once the Big Bang is completed (including extra routes to the Airport etc and the Second City Crossing) then that will change. Otherwise though, I can't really choose. Manchester is more convenient, but Nottingham feels more impressive for some reason. I can only hope that if Cardiff (or wherever) do decide to build a route, they follow the example of these, and not that of Brum - and especially not that of Edinburgh!

I have never been on the Supertram or the Luas (never been to Dublin period; only Dun Laoghaire - sp? - and then only briefly), whilst Croydon feels adequate and no better. As for the Midland Metro though, well...

 

[WatcherZero]

Midland Metro: Built to serve a housing development that never happened.

 

[Ivo]

Who in the name of all that is holy voted for the Midland Metro?!

 

[Tom B]

Remember that in Sheffield the supertrams have a distinct advantage as the privatised buses are completely dysfunctional (unlike Edinburgh).

 

[CallySleeperKid]

I used to be a regular user of the Nottingham tram but it is always rammed, which has led me to avoiding using it and sticking with the bus or train, depending on where I am travelling from.

I think the Sheffield tram system is a lovely network, just a pity the set out of the trams is no as good as Nottingham.

Put the Nottingham trams on the Sheffield system and there would be the winner.

On that basis, Sheffield get my vote for personal satisfaction of the whole route, plus it takes you to some cracking real ale pubs!

 

[starrymarkb]

I've not been on any of the UK ones. Though I was v impressed with Leipzig's system

 

[WestCoast]

I think the Sheffield tram system is a lovely network, just a pity the set out of the trams is no as good as Nottingham.

The problem with the trams in Sheffield is there are too few doors and people are reluctant to go up the steps to the elevated sections when it's busy. Even when it is busy - the conductors still manage to get through somehow! But Sheffield was working with older technology.

NET trams are very good but I think the LUAS's Alstom Citadis trams are the best!

 

[tbtc]

Remember that in Sheffield the supertrams have a distinct advantage as the privatised buses are completely dysfunctional (unlike Edinburgh).

The opposite is true, as I see it.

Nottingham does well because the local buses are owned by the same company, so are co-ordinated/ through tickets/ interchanges etc.

Sheffield had many years of bus competition which wasted resources. Numbers have improved when Stagecoach took over Yorkshire Traction/Yorkshire Terrier, which has allowed some intergration (two tram "feeder" minibus routes, tickets valid by bus *and* tram etc)

Edinburgh is going down the Nottingham route which is why it may work better than some expect (if/when it is up and running)
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I know that Supertram wasn't liked at first - what would you say the reasons were for it being an example not to follow (I don't know much about the network history)?. It seems well-liked now though and patronage is high

The problems with Sheffield are five fold:

1. No "base" to start from. Manchester and Croydon had the advantage of taking over existing train routes, so already had a passenger base there. Sheffield took a lot longer to establish a market for tram travel. This is why I don't like comparisons of passenger numbers between different systems.

2. Lack of bus integration (since buses and trams competed for a long time there were struggles for passenger numbers - bus routes were increased in frequency to compete with trams instead of trying to co-ordinate)

3. Tickets. At first you had to purchase a ticket from one machine at the tram stop, then "validate" it at another machine (which printed a time on it). The trams had no staff on them (or, certainly not on all of them). Nowadays you buy tickets on board, and all trams are staffed which has lead to numbers increasing

4. Planning. There are two uneccesary "spurs" (Herdings Park and Malin Bridge) which aren't really long enough to justify a service, but were created for political reasons (and for future expansion which never happened). The tram routes are a bit complicated, trying to serve as many places as they can, rather than one "fast" route (compare the twenty minutes it takes to get to Meadowhall by tram with the eight minutes a Pacer can do it in).

5. Housing. The tram was designed to serve two of the big high density housing areas (Kelvin and Norfolk Park) but these were both knocked down in the 1990s.

That said, I like the Supertram, though it is a child of early '90s local politics (in terms of the routes it serves). Stagecoach have made a massive difference, and I'm more likely to use the tram nowadays since I can use my bus pass on it.

Possibly the best thing about Supertram is the variety - from cobbled city centre streets to fast running on ex train lines to the tunnel under Brook Hill, the mix of speeds etc.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I've been on lots of european tram systems (plus San Diego & Cairo) and my favourite is probably Karlsruhe which also has onstreet running of s-bahns

 

[WestCoast]

That said, I like the Supertram, though it is a child of early '90s local politics (in terms of the routes it serves). Stagecoach have made a massive difference, and I'm more likely to use the tram nowadays since I can use my bus pass on it.

I think Supertram is great for variety, the on-street running is interesting, I find Metrolink a little boring in places because of this. Supertram is a great success story for Stagecoach's and probably one of the factors in Stagecoach winning the GMPTE Metrolink contract from Serco.

So far, the Metrolink is winning the poll closely followed by Supertram!

 

[bb21]

Conductors give the services a more human aspect which the cold and idle TVM's cannot provide. So my preference is Nottingham followed by Sheffield. Midland Metro smells, so does Tyne & Wear, seats on the old Metrolink stock feel rather claustrophobic (although I've not had a chance to try out the new ones yet), and Croydon Tramlink, well, they are just not very nice are they?

Not done the others

 

[WatcherZero]

So far, the Metrolink is winning the poll closely followed by Supertram!

Same company running both so the big win for Stagecoach Light Rail Division?
Or wait that division was folded into the bus division last year wasnt it?

 

[ChrisCooper]

I think Nottingham needs to get it's finger out soon (before the expansion) or else it will begin to slip. The trams are starting to get very tired, the overall adverts are messy and the heavy use of contravision on the windows does not make for a nice travelling experiance. Reliability is falling, last time I was in Nottingham trams were running sometimes in 2s or 3s. I really hope they are not going to wait until the extension to refurbish the existing fleet, or else they are going to be in a right state.

 

[WestCoast]

Conductors give the services a more human aspect which the cold and idle TVM's cannot provide.

They are good, but I still think it would be a struggle for them to operate a on peak hour Metrolink trams (unless they were seated conductors as in Amsterdam).

I think Nottingham needs to get it's finger out soon (before the expansion) or else it will begin to slip. The trams are starting to get very tired, the overall adverts are messy and the heavy use of contravision on the windows does not make for a nice travelling experiance. Reliability is falling, last time I was in Nottingham trams were running sometimes in 2s or 3s. I really hope they are not going to wait until the extension to refurbish the existing fleet, or else they are going to be in a right state.

I traveled on the NET a week ago, before that the last time was in 2006. I'll agree that there is far too much advertising going on with the trams, virtually every tram seems to have adverts that obscure the view!

However, I thought the infrastructure (stops, track e.t.c) and the trams was in a good condition, both internally and externally. No litter, graffiti or threadbare seating cushions. Admittedly, the trams are going to look a little worn after 7 years service, but the system still does feel "new and glossy", certainly much more so than the other systems. Contrast the network to the Manchester Metrolink, who's trams (the older ones) and stations (many ex-BR) can look extremely tired and scruffy, although this is improving.

The system seemed OK reliability wise as well, the countdown displays are excellent and something which is sorely missed from other networks (ahem..Metrolink and Supertram). In fact, Metrolink have the displays at some stops but they are often out of order or useless.

 

[ChrisCooper]

I've not used Sheffield for a while so would be very disapointed if they have not improved their information. I remember travelling out to one of the temini and the tram behind broke down so instead of a fairly short wait for the next tram we ended up waiting ages with no information and starting to worry about getting back to Meadowhall for the train home. Had we known we could have either gone back on the same tram or even walked past where the failed one was to the junction where another branch came in and trams were still running.

Of cource the street running is a problem for reliability on all the systems. Even with priority they can still end up getting stuck in congestion or due to road accidents, and they are also prone to pedestrian collisions too where they travel through largely pedestrianised areas (such as Old Market Square in Nottingham where quite a few drunks get hit). There is also the problem of people parking too close to the tracks.

 

[WatcherZero]

Been announced Nottingham will be phasing out conductors and moving to a pre-paid travelcard system.

 

[WestCoast]

Been announced Nottingham will be phasing out conductors and moving to a pre-paid travelcard system.

I think it's not a smart move, but I realise there have been issues with uncollected fares. A good idea would be to put 2-3 conductors on busy peak trams, one placed at the front, one in the middle and one at the back. This is what happens on the Sheffield Supertram, after the fiasco they had with off-tram ticketing. Additionally, this is what happens on the Blackpool Tramway, where extremely busy "Balloon" double-deck trams operate on the central section in Summer/during the Illuminations. One conductor opens the manual door and checks/sells tickets to the standing passengers (if there any), one looks after the lower deck, one looks after the upper deck.

I have no doubt that the high satisfaction levels will fall on the NET without conductors, when litter, graffiti, fare evasion and anti-social behaviour increases. The UK does not have the mindset or attitude towards pre-paid ticketing that continental Europe has.

They could, in theory, have both conductors and smart cards. The routemaster buses in London operated with conductors and Oyster cards. There is no need to install unreliable machines at stops.

While continental European cities prefer off-tram ticketing, they have far more integrated and proven approaches to ticketing (i.e. not JUST relying on ticket machines). One MAJOR exception is Amsterdam, who reintroduced seated conductors after fare evasion was all too commonplace and they recognised the safety and security benefits of a conductor. They now also operate with a smart card system and have conductors on the majority of routes.
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Metrolink's problem with ticket machine unreliability got so bad that 30+ people would be forced to board without a ticket at certain stops. You used to ring the unhelpful line and they would tell you to go to another stop to buy a ticket:roll:. Or they'd give you a code for the inspectors. The new ticket machines have helped to alleviate the problem, but they haven't solved it.

Then there was the brutal attacks on passengers, mainly on the quieter night services. This isn't the London Underground where there tend to be people around when the system is open. There isn't any assistance at the stops either.

 

[gordonthemoron]

why not also have ticket machines on the trams, like in Berlin & Munich?

 

[WestCoast]

why not also have ticket machines on the trams, like in Berlin & Munich?

Fine, but the experience of this on the FTR was not good. In Germany, when I have used the Eurobahn private train company to travel between unstaffed/no ticket-machine stations they have the ticket machine onboard. If there's a queue to use it, it takes me a good 5 mins to buy a ticket, by which time the train arrives at the next stop! So I can't pay sometimes..

 

[WatcherZero]

Its a lot of weight to be carrying around, complicates maintenence and reduces passenger capacity.

We seem to be moving to a simple swipe card system with TVM's for visitors in a lot of citys over the next couple of years.

 

[WestCoast]

Its a lot of weight to be carrying around, complicates maintenence and reduces passenger capacity.

We seem to be moving to a simple swipe card system with TVM's for visitors in a lot of citys over the next couple of years.

Yes, but it still doesn't mean conductors/attendants/permanent inspectors have to be removed. Amsterdam, a city which relies heavily on its vast tram network, did not remove any conductors when it introduced its compulsory "chipkaart". On trams, passengers enter the vehicle at the door nearest to the conductor (or driver), who keeps an eye on them "checking in". Conductors sell disposable single, day or 3 day "chipkaarts" - longer term tickets are sold online, from ticketing retailers (such as kiosks and supermarkets), post offices and travel offices. The conductors also provide information to tourists and monitor the vehicles CCTV.

Tramlink Nottingham might want to have a look at that system, before they use random inspections and TVMs. May seem more expensive to accountants, but I believe if GVB Amsterdam finds it more cost-effective it could well be a model to use.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I have never been checked on Munich (or Berlin) trams, they only do it on the u-bahn & s-bahn