Fate of HST

[47802]

I don't recall mentioning that this would happen soon?

If we go ahead and scrap all of the HSTs, one of the finest piece of rail engineering in history, what's going to happen in 20/30/40 years time? Rebuild new steam engines? That doesn't seem very heritage to me.

Times change. These things happen.

I very much doubt that all the HST's will be scrapped in any case we have the prototype preserved and clearly the 125 group want at least 1 production power car to stick on the other end, but by the same token it doesn't mean to say that every preserved railway will be clamouring to get their hands on an HST either.

We already have a new Steam Loco in Tornado which is extremely popular, the fact it isn't original and is a essentially a replica has been no detriment at all.

Which will be more popular Tornado pulling a set of Mk3 coaches or an HST set?

 

[CosherB]

I am no expert on this matter but please remember I am talking in 20/30/40 years time. Not every heritage railway has a Tornado or a Flying Scotsman. Are all these steam engines seriously expected to last into the next god knows how many generations? (Genuine question).

Genuine answer - yes.

How much of the Flying Scotsman do you think is still original from the 1923 build? Particularly after a 10 year overhaul costing £4.5 million?!

How much of the original HST is still in place from those built in 1975?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I don't recall mentioning that this would happen soon?

If we go ahead and scrap all of the HSTs, one of the finest piece of rail engineering in history, what's going to happen in 20/30/40 years time? Rebuild new steam engines? That doesn't seem very heritage to me.

Times change. These things happen.

Families on a day out want to see a steam loco in operation, at least where possible. And in my opinion families are a lot more important to a preserved railway in terms of revenue generated than rail enthusiasts.

When I was growing in the mid 1970s just about everyone knew what a Intercity 125 was because at the time it looked nothing else and nothing else in the UK ran regulary at 125 mph. Bloody hell even my mate Sarah Towel who had no interest in railways knew what a Intercity 125 was. Nowadays lots of trains run at 125 mph and the HST no longer holds the public's interest.

The fact that power cars are going to be preserved is really good news and I dare say at least one full set will be saved from the cutters torch but I can't see them seeing much use on preserved railways. A HST is impressive when its hammering along at 125 mph, not when its trundling along at 25 mph.

 

[The47Wanderer]

We're all railfans alike.
Some of us like kettles. Groups of people work to preserve kettles.
Some of us like classic diesels like the Deltics or Westerns, and there are groups of people who work to preserve them.
There are fans of more modern diesel traction like 47s, 56s...people want to and do preserve them.

It's simple. There are very few trains, or "stock", that people don't care for. People who like stuff, will come together, and want to preserve stuff.

In godknows how many years when I have a family, and they have a family, i'll be sure to take my grandchildren on a heritage line, and i'd look at the HSTs like many look at the steamers today, and remember the days that they were the "proper trains" that took us on our holidays.

People don't want to think of the prospect of low speed running; "it's not natural/what they were designed for"...well neither were the steam locos.
People who say "but all the stuff is replaced"...a 47/8 has just gone into preservation in intercity colours....

 

[leightonbd]

Sod's law or something similar says no one will take an interest in HSTs as a 'preserved' part of the railway until there are only a few left ... lock the thread and reopen in ten years time.

Genuine Q: No one is clamouring for preservation of the original (1995 or so) Eurostars, or are they?

 

[Roast Veg]

Unfortunately the 373s are extraordinarily difficult to preserve beyond a static display, as are most modern intercity stock. If the rumours about the power cars becoming gate guards are true, then that will be the best way for anything of them to stick around.

 

[The47Wanderer]

Genuine Q: No one is clamouring for preservation of the original (1995 or so) Eurostars, or are they?

The same can be said for electric stock as a whole; preserved railways don't really have the infrastructure!

 

[Firesprite]

Sod's law or something similar says no one will take an interest in HSTs as a 'preserved' part of the railway until there are only a few left ... lock the thread and reopen in ten years time.

Genuine Q: No one is clamouring for preservation of the original (1995 or so) Eurostars, or are they?

Two power cars have been preserved at a training college, Not to sure about painting them in pink. Also I gather that the first power car in service is be preserved at the NRM.

 

[Chris125]

Two power cars have been preserved at a training college, Not to sure about painting them in pink. Also I gather that the first power car in service is be preserved at the NRM.

Indeed it is.

[
Eurostar 3308 - National Railway Museum York by Railpics UK, on Flickr

 

[dubscottie]

If one set does get preserved I can bet some special snowflake will get upset if its painted blue/grey because of the Jimmy Savile connection.

 

[CosherB]

If one set does get preserved I can bet some special snowflake will get upset if its painted blue/grey because of the Jimmy Savile connection.

Only when people like you take the time to remind everyone of the link. Just don't even mention it.

 

[47802]

I'm not sure why anyone would try and compare an 18 car articulated EMU or even 9 car if you used a half set, even if a HST is not that useful on a preserved railway its certainly a lot more viable than a Eurostar train and doesn't have much relevance to the argument.

Of course if you have a very short line it could be used as a covered walkway as an alternative to running a train

 

[torten]

I very much doubt that all the HST's will be scrapped in any case we have the prototype preserved and clearly the 125 group want at least 1 production power car to stick on the other end, but by the same token it doesn't mean to say that every preserved railway will be clamouring to get their hands on an HST either.

We already have a new Steam Loco in Tornado which is extremely popular, the fact it isn't original and is a essentially a replica has been no detriment at all.

Which will be more popular Tornado pulling a set of Mk3 coaches or an HST set?

I expect in the ideal world, the 125 group will probably pick up one of the buffered GC units, as to allow for better flexibility with shunting etc. And as said before, the Great Central Railway is one of the few which could use a HST properly.

And having read the plans for the Tornado MK3 set, the A1 people have probably made the right choice - MK1 isn't worth the effort, MK2 offer many of the disadvantages of MK1 and less of the advantages. MK3's with sliding windows are the best way to go.

 

[47802]

I expect in the ideal world, the 125 group will probably pick up one of the buffered GC units, as to allow for better flexibility with shunting etc. And as said before, the Great Central Railway is one of the few which could use a HST properly.

.

Not sure about that I think their aim is return one as near to original condition as possible including original engine, coolers and original appearance with the old style light cluster. I guess if end up being able to get more than 1 they might leave the other one in final state of development.

 

[43096]

Not sure about that I think their aim is return one as near to original condition as possible including original engine, coolers and original appearance with the old style light cluster.

I do wish people would actually look this stuff up rather making it up. Not hard to find the 125 Group's objectives - it's under "Our Aims" on their website.

"Ultimately, to raise enough money to purchase some examples of IC 125 rolling stock to enter preservation. Such rolling stock shall include one or more power cars, as near as possible to original operational configuration, but including as a minimum a Paxman Valenta engined power car, Marston cooler group and original shaped front end."

Nothing about light clusters.

 

[47802]

I do wish people would actually look this stuff up rather making it up. Not hard to find the 125 Group's objectives - it's under "Our Aims" on their website.

"Ultimately, to raise enough money to purchase some examples of IC 125 rolling stock to enter preservation. Such rolling stock shall include one or more power cars, as near as possible to original operational configuration, but including as a minimum a Paxman Valenta engined power car, Marston cooler group and original shaped front end."

Nothing about light clusters.

Don't try and accuse me of something you don't actually know! I did actually look this stuff up on their website ok the light clusters is my interpretation of they are aiming for but what is clear they are unlikely to want a GC version, and frankly there's no need to get so ridiculously pedantic about it.

 

[Marklund]

I do wish people would actually look this stuff up rather making it up. Not hard to find the 125 Group's objectives - it's under "Our Aims" on their website.

"Ultimately, to raise enough money to purchase some examples of IC 125 rolling stock to enter preservation. Such rolling stock shall include one or more power cars, as near as possible to original operational configuration, but including as a minimum a Paxman Valenta engined power car, Marston cooler group and original shaped front end."

Nothing about light clusters.

Original shaped front end could easily be taken to mean original clusters.
Unless you know definitely otherwise, I'd wind your neck in.

 

[Northhighland]

Families on a day out want to see a steam loco in operation, at least where possible. And in my opinion families are a lot more important to a preserved railway in terms of revenue generated than rail enthusiasts.

When I was growing in the mid 1970s just about everyone knew what a Intercity 125 was because at the time it looked nothing else and nothing else in the UK ran regulary at 125 mph. Bloody hell even my mate Sarah Towel who had no interest in railways knew what a Intercity 125 was. Nowadays lots of trains run at 125 mph and the HST no longer holds the public's interest.

The fact that power cars are going to be preserved is really good news and I dare say at least one full set will be saved from the cutters torch but I can't see them seeing much use on preserved railways. A HST is impressive when its hammering along at 125 mph, not when its trundling along at 25 mph.

An HST is an impressive sight when leaving the station. it is an iconic image in the publics mind of BR days, I would argue that in 20 years time the HST (in original livery) will be the main image in the public mind of the diesel era on our railways. In the North of Scotland they will probably still be in service.

They have a place and heritage lines will probably find a place for them. Steam is beautiful, but the number of people who remember steam days is dwindling. Heritage railways are about people remembering past experiences.

 

[CosherB]

An HST is an impressive sight when leaving the station. it is an iconic image in the publics mind of BR days, I would argue that in 20 years time the HST (in original livery) will be the main image in the public mind of the diesel era on our railways. In the North of Scotland they will probably still be in service.

They have a place and heritage lines will probably find a place for them. Steam is beautiful, but the number of people who remember steam days is dwindling. Heritage railways are about people remembering past experiences.

Due to my age, I never travelled on a steam hauled 'BR' service ..... but that doesn't make me less likely to want to travel behind a heritage steam loco does it? Surely it makes me more likely to want to do it!!

 

[sprinterguy]

Heritage railways are about people remembering past experiences.

Though not necessarily reliving their own. As you say the number of people who remember steam days is dwindling, and there are two whole generations now who will have no recollection of working steam and yet steam trains remain the primary draw for visitors to preserved railways. Witness also the popularity of tourist attractions such as The North of England Open Air Museum at Beamish, which offers a tangible recreation of a past largely beyond living memory.

Diesel trains don't have the same poignancy to the general public, even one as definitively a part of its era as the HST.

 

[Northhighland]

Due to my age, I never travelled on a steam hauled 'BR' service ..... but that doesn't make me less likely to want to travel behind a heritage steam loco does it? Surely it makes me more likely to want to do it!!

For some people undoubtedly, for others though they don't hold much attraction at all. A lot of people go to Heritage railways as a family day out, they stir memories, many people will have fond memories of travelling on a HST. I think bringing the past to life is a big part of heritage experiences, this is more powerful in families (therefore more profitable) if people actually remember the experience.

 

[CosherB]

For some people undoubtedly, for others though they don't hold much attraction at all. A lot of people go to Heritage railways as a family day out, they stir memories, many people will have fond memories of travelling on a HST. I think bringing the past to life is a big part of heritage experiences, this is more powerful in families (therefore more profitable) if people actually remember the experience.

Sorry, but that doesn't compute with the Flying Scotsman 'lunacy' when it returned to the mainline last year!

 

[STKKK46]

Sorry, but that doesn't compute with the Flying Scotsman 'lunacy' when it returned to the mainline last year!

I don't think I'm going to add much more after this post however, I will point this out. Whilst the people frothing over the Flying Scotsman may not have travelled behind it before it was withdrawn, I'm sure they will have heard many stories about its beauty and its days on the mainline, as did I.

However I cannot stress this enough, times do move on and things do change. When the HSTs are withdrawn from service whenever that may be, people may well look back at them in the same way they look back on the Flying Scotsman. I will look back on them with fondness. In fact I did for the few years I rarely travelled on them and only travelled on Voyagers.

It is rather baffling that some people are completely ruling them being preserved on a heritage railway out. Yes they are 125 units, certainly not ideal for 25mph lines. But once again, this is a thread on the fate of the HST. The eventual fate may well end up 2 or 3 going to various railways wherever they may be. This may be in 20 years, whenever, I don't know - none of us know. But I have one hell of a feeling that they would not prove unpopular.

And with that I sign off. I will read this thread with interest and unless provoked or questioned, I will not post any more thoughts on the matter. Cheers.

 

[47802]

I was up at the NYMR a weeks ago when the EMT HST ran on the line I think it did spark a bit of curiosity from non enthusiasts who happened to be there but I doubt many would have travelled especially to see. Whether there will much interest in obtaining HST's outside those groups with a specific interest in them remains to be seen. As much as I hate to say it there may be more interest in buying cheaper to run trains such as Railbuses and 1st gen sprinters when they can get hold of them for off peak services or lines that might want to look at providing a more regular service.

I very much doubt that HST's will be looked upon with the same sort of fondness as the Flying Scotsman in years to come, well lets take Deltics it's 35 years since they ran regularly Westerns even more but how much interest do they generate outside of Enthusiasts?

 

[squizzler]

I reckon a couple of power cars could be dedicated to Royal duties - the royal train is mostly Mk3 to start with.

 

[CosherB]

I reckon a couple of power cars could be dedicated to Royal duties - the royal train is mostly Mk3 to start with.

You might want to do your electrical homework on that idea ...... and then explain why DBC would start to buy redundant HST powercars to replace their own 67s ....

 

[squizzler]

You might want to do your electrical homework on that idea ...... and then explain why DBC would start to buy redundant HST powercars to replace their own 67s ....

Granted, it is presumably DC not three phase AC but has the royal train been heavily updated since it was introduced in the 1970's? New traction might be part of a more comprehensive update as part of the great plan to impress foreigners and attract inwards investment after brexit...

 

[CosherB]

Granted, it is presumably DC not three phase AC but has the royal train been heavily updated since it was introduced in the 1970's? New traction might be part of a more comprehensive update as part of the great plan to impress foreigners and attract inwards investment after brexit...

What great plan? I don't understand how an HST is 'new traction' compared to a 67 and Mk3 LHCS!

And in any case, the UK post-Brexit will be skint so a new Royal Train will not even be on any list of priorities. Get real! :roll:

 

[richieb1971]

I reckon a couple of power cars could be dedicated to Royal duties - the royal train is mostly Mk3 to start with.

2 more 67's on the scrap heap then.

 

[CosherB]

2 more 67's on the scrap heap then.

Do you know something about the DBC Royal Train contract that the rest of us don't? Please share it with us!