Fastjp

[Adam Williams]

That's good news!

Out of interest is there a way to see the accreditation requirements anywhere? As far as I can tell RDG only publish the "accreditation guide" which talks a lot about the process but has no detail on the technical requirements of the TIS. How is one supposed to know if they have a feasible idea for a new TIS when they can't see what the requirements are?

To my knowledge you'd have to arrange for introductions etc with RDG, present a credible business plan and then you may be able to think about getting access to this.

 

[blimmo]

My credible business plan depends on the accreditation requirements...

 

[Adam Williams]

Perhaps there is legislation that could assist

 

[blimmo]

Are you proposing FOI? Does it apply to RDG?

 

[Adam Williams]

Not to RDG itself (yet).

 

[blimmo]

Are the DFTO operators FOIable then? I guess if they had operated their own retailer that wasn't just a whitelabel they might have it?

 

[Watershed]

Are the DFTO operators FOIable then? I guess if they had operated their own retailer that wasn't just a whitelabel they might have it?

Yes, but none of them write their journey planners in-house. Even if they did, it's almost certain that they would refuse to provide a copy of the accreditation standards - they are subject to RDG copyright so they would fall under the copyright FoI exception.

 

[xotGD]

If you think you can make a cross-London (or cross-Manchester, cross-Bradford, cross-Birmingham, cross-Glasgow, etc.) connection in less than the official minimum, simply start a second itinerary search from the second station based on when you think you will get there, and see what it throws up. My usual trip to Manchester includes an unofficial cross-Bradford transfer, which I have never failed to make.

Likewise, I always look for <10 minute connections at Leeds to see what time I can potentially get home. Just a shame that Delay Repay doesn't apply when the inbound train is late.

 

[MrJeeves]

they are subject to RDG copyright so they would fall under the copyright FoI exception.

Copyright is not an exemption to FOI, but rather it is the impact on commercial interests. The Copy Right Design and Patents Act explicitly states that "where the copying or publishing of information is specifically authorised by an Act of Parliament copyright will not be infringed". And to further quote from the ICO:

Providing information in response to a request made under FOIA constitutes an act specifically authorised under an Act of Parliament. Consequently disclosing information under FOIA will not infringe copyright.

Given these are requirements anyone entering the market must meet, it is extraordinarily unlikely that it could be considered commercially sensitive to share the rules.

 

[blimmo]

Given these are requirements anyone entering the market must meet, it is extraordinarily unlikely that it could be considered commercially sensitive to share the rules.

Which is why I was (and still am) baffled that they aren't just available anyway! What possible reason is there to control their distribution?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Nov 2025 ==

If you think you can make a cross-London (or cross-Manchester, cross-Bradford, cross-Birmingham, cross-Glasgow, etc.) connection in less than the official minimum, simply start a second itinerary search from the second station based on when you think you will get there, and see what it throws up. My usual trip to Manchester includes an unofficial cross-Bradford transfer, which I have never failed to make.

I do indeed do this but in this case there were two stations I was considering starting from and going to and which I went to depended on whether I could make the London transfer. Google was useless since I had a split ticket on one leg and even fastjp doesn't let you enter an operator restriction of only one part of a journey so I was having to ignore some proposed journeys. At this point there was enough complexity I would have really appreciated not having to faff around with doing extra searches to see unofficial London connections.

 

[Hadders]

Frankly, a better solution would be if minimum connection times were reduced to a more sensible level - the massively excessive MCTs make rail journeys appear longer than they actually take, making rail less attractive than it should be.

Though obviously ticket retailers and journeyplanners should follow the rules that apply to them, even when the rules are unfortunately a bit stupid.

Many non-enthusiast types think that minimum connection times are too tight. 'Us' on here don't think that but we're not 'normal' when it comes to this sort of thing.

For example, the minimum connection time has to be set to take account of arriving in the rear carriage of a busy train on platform 0 at Kings Cross, walking at average pace with luggage and taking the underground (via the 'tourist route' at Kings Cross) to (say) Waterloo.

 

[blimmo]

Maybe some could be considered too tight but I struggle to imagine how it could take 45 mins to do Euston to Liverpool street unless you were particularly slow at walking (in which case I would suggest that the "additional interchange time" option should be selected).

The time isn't set by someone working out how long it'll take anyway, it's made of 15 mins of tube journey (which is roughly accurate) plus 15 mins interchange time at both EUS and LST. Which for circle line to mainline platforms at LST is particularly ridiculous. I think this simplistic calculation system is the cause of the issues tbh.

 

[Hadders]

The time isn't set by someone working out how long it'll take anyway, it's made of 15 mins of tube journey (which is roughly accurate) plus 15 mins interchange time at both EUS and LST. Which for circle line to mainline platforms at LST is particularly ridiculous. I think this simplistic calculation system is the cause of the issues tbh.

You and me wouldn't because we're familiar with both Kings Cross, Liverpool Street and how to get between them but most 'normal' customers would consider 45 minutes too tight. And I don't mean people who are disabled or of reduced mobility.

15 minutes at Kings Cross sounds generous but you might be alighting from the far end of platform 0. It might take 3 or 4 minutes to get off the train, the train mihght be a few minutes late. You round up your family (that's not a reason for additional interchange time) and make your way to the gateline to get out of the station and then look for the underground. If you've got luggage you might need to use the lifts (again that's not a reason for additional interchange time).

You get to the Circle Line platform and find you've just missed a train, the next one is in three minutes.

You get on the train and the journey to Liverpool Street goes smoothly. Upon arrival you're at the wrong end of the train for a speedy exit so make your way to the stairs, carrying your luggage with you whilst keeping an eye on the kids. You negitiate the gateline and arrive on the concourse and check the departure boards to see that your train departs from platform 17, the furthest platform from the Underground entrance.

You make it with 10 minutes to spare and think 'phew, that was tight'.

 

[blimmo]

I will agree that it could, maybe, take 15 mins to get from the main line platforms at Euston to the circle line at Euston square (or the equivalent journey in kings cross). But it's ridiculous to suggest it would take 15 mins to go from the circle line platforms at LST to any of the mainline platforms. You don't even have to use the stairs in that direction and even if you got lost and used the stairs they are very short.

Regardless, it *should* be a tight connection if it's right up against the MCT, the clue is in the name. Most MCTs within smaller stations are *less* than 10 mins so if you are concerned about it being too tight with only 10 mins left then you should be adding extra time.

Also most connections are half hourly or hourly so those extra 10 mins can mean a 1 hour longer journey (it means exactly this on a common journey I make!). I'm happy for people to want a longer connection time but they should either have to ask for it or there should be a way for me to obtain a valid itinerary with a shorter one since I don't want to have an hour longer journey than necessary.

 

[Trainbike46]

You and me wouldn't because we're familiar with both Kings Cross, Liverpool Street and how to get between them but most 'normal' customers would consider 45 minutes too tight. And I don't mean people who are disabled or of reduced mobility.

15 minutes at Kings Cross sounds generous but you might be alighting from the far end of platform 0. It might take 3 or 4 minutes to get off the train, the train mihght be a few minutes late. You round up your family (that's not a reason for additional interchange time) and make your way to the gateline to get out of the station and then look for the underground. If you've got luggage you might need to use the lifts (again that's not a reason for additional interchange time).

You get to the Circle Line platform and find you've just missed a train, the next one is in three minutes.

You get on the train and the journey to Liverpool Street goes smoothly. Upon arrival you're at the wrong end of the train for a speedy exit so make your way to the stairs, carrying your luggage with you whilst keeping an eye on the kids. You negitiate the gateline and arrive on the concourse and check the departure boards to see that your train departs from platform 17, the furthest platform from the Underground entrance.

You make it with 10 minutes to spare and think 'phew, that was tight'.

Your example has more or less everything going wrong, and people still arrive with ten minutes to spare. That's clearly a case of an MCT that's too long!

Some, but not all, MCTs are clearly excessive, especially on cross-London journeys.

 

[Hadders]

Your example has more or less everything going wrong, and people still arrive with ten minutes to spare. That's clearly a case of an MCT that's too long!

Some, but not all, MCTs are clearly excessive, especially on cross-London journeys.

It's not! There may be some that warrant a change but fundamentally you're making the assumption that everyone is as experienced in rail travel as you are.

Just today a former colleague contacted me to get 'urgent advice' because the business related journey she was making had a connection time between Kings Cross and London Bridge that they considered was far too tight. It wasn't, and the connection was made but I do think you underestimate the anxiety many peiople feel when travelling by train.

 

[blimmo]

I guess the real question here is what is the MCT for? Is it an interchange that everyone (or perhaps the majority of people) would be *comfortable* making or is it the *minimum* time that is needed for most people to make the connection (perhaps without hurrying too much)?

It wasn't, and the connection was made

In that case the MCT being less than she expected was specifically good? It allowed her to see and eventually take a faster journey than she would have planned for herself without the guidance of the journey planner.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Nov 2025 ==

I do think you underestimate the anxiety many peiople feel when travelling by train.

I appreciate some people may be anxious about interchanges in busy stations and cities but there is literally an option in the journey planner if you want extra time. Perhaps it should be more visible and perhaps it should have some default value above zero but I don't think we should be setting the MCTs that everyone including both experienced commuters and nervous novices has to follow based on only *potential* anxiety.

 

[andy33gmail]

Maybe some could be considered too tight but I struggle to imagine how it could take 45 mins to do Euston to Liverpool street unless you were particularly slow at walking

2.6 miles, you can do it in time without bothering with the underground!

 

[Flying Snail]

I guess the real question here is what is the MCT for? Is it an interchange that everyone (or perhaps the majority of people) would be *comfortable* making or is it the *minimum* time that is needed for most people to make the connection (perhaps without hurrying too much)?

It is the minimum time everyone that doesn't have serious mobility issues should be able to make a connection from an on-time arrival.

I appreciate some people may be anxious about interchanges in busy stations and cities but there is literally an option in the journey planner if you want extra time. Perhaps it should be more visible and perhaps it should have some default value above zero but I don't think we should be setting the MCTs that everyone including both experienced commuters and nervous novices has to follow based on only *potential* anxiety.

The vast majority do not and will not use these additional parameters, like it or not the standard will be set to accommodate the masses and not the likes of yourself.

Is there a demand for tighter planning? I don't know. But even if so there is no chance the industry will reduce minimums and increase the likelihood of more delay claims.

 

[andy33gmail]

It is the minimum time everyone that doesn't have serious mobility issues should be able to make a connection from an on-time arrival.

The vast majority do not and will not use these additional parameters, like it or not the standard will be set to accommodate the masses and not the likes of yourself.

Is there a demand for tighter planning? I don't know. But even if so there is no chance the industry will reduce minimums and increase the likelihood of more delay claims.

I wonder if you could fudge it by saying “a faster itinerary may be possible, but a connection is not guaranteed. Delay repay may not be available in full in some cases”

which isn’t a much different outcome to why happens in practice; plan a multi-leg journey but end up arriving one train earlier

 

[duffield]

...

The vast majority do not and will not use these additional parameters, like it or not the standard will be set to accommodate the masses and not the likes of yourself.

...

But you could force a choice rather than set a default. I'm not suggesting this should be the wording but you could be forced to either select "experienced traveller" or "generous connections" in order to proceed. To avoid this being annoying, once you had made the choice on a given website/app/device it would then become the default for the future unless changed.

 

[blimmo]

Tbh it's not delay repay I'm interested in but advances. ATM I am forced to use the ridiculous MCTs for cross London journeys unless I'm using flexibles since if my first leg is delayed (and it's often Avanti...) then I need the itinerary to be valid so I can travel on a later train with my advance.

It is the minimum time everyone that doesn't have serious mobility issues should be able to make a connection from an on-time arrival.

I still don't think that under this definition 15 mins is appropriate for circle line to mainline at LST. Maybe for Elizabeth line to mainline but the circle line platforms are so close that even if you get lost there's no way it'll take you more than 5 mins.

 

[xotGD]

there is no chance the industry will reduce minimums and increase the likelihood of more delay claims.

Exactly this. If anything, the industry would prefer to increase minimum connection times, thereby inconveniencing passengers further.

 

[DelW]

Tbh it's not delay repay I'm interested in but advances. ATM I am forced to use the ridiculous MCTs for cross London journeys unless I'm using flexibles since if my first leg is delayed (and it's often Avanti...) then I need the itinerary to be valid so I can travel on a later train with my advance.

It's the reason I've given up using advances for cross London journeys. I'd often end up with a mandatory itinerary with an hour and a quarter or more between arrival and departure for e.g. Euston <> Waterloo, which I routinely and easily do in under half an hour. So at Waterloo I'd have to watch a couple of perfectly suitable (and often quieter) trains depart before the one on which my ticket was valid.

Of course "the railway" gets more revenue from selling me a flexible ticket, so they're hardly likely to want to sort the issue out.

 

[blimmo]

I think this could be discouraging people travelling by train too. If someone looks up a journey and it says it'll take 4 hours but actually half an hour of that is waiting at a terminus that could be enough to make driving or a bus seem a better option.

 

[sot]

When planning things like this I use BRTimes as it will display impossible connections ( second train leaves second station before first train even arrives at first station) in red.

Anything shorter than the MCT is orange and is down to you to practice how fine it could be cut.

Anything that abides by the MCT as in what can be sold shows in green.

I am also not sure how much or what the NRE site's 'allow less time to cross london' button does. I have used one itinerary from this before and was denied DR by GTR.

 

[JBuchananGB]

I love the discussion about MCT between Euston and Liverpool Street LST). Real Example. I travelled from Wigan NW to Billericay (BIC) recently. Journey as planned by Trainsplit which uses FastJP:
dep Wigan 07.11 arrive Euston 09.15
dep LST 10.13 arrive BIC 10.45

Actual
dep Wigan 07.25 arrive Euston 09.25
transfer Euston to Stratford via Northern and Elizabeth Line arriving Stratford (SRA) 09.55.
dep SRA 09.57 arrive BIC 10.21

I nearly missed the connection at SRA because I headed straight to platform 10, only to discover that train would be at 10A. Good job it was a 10 coach train as it was coming in just as I reached that very long platform.

Same day I complied with the journey planner returning from Billericay at 13.57 for the 15.30 from Euston.

 

[Tester]

I love the discussion about MCT between Euston and Liverpool Street LST). Real Example. I travelled from Wigan NW to Billericay (BIC) recently. Journey as planned by Trainsplit which uses FastJP:
dep Wigan 07.11 arrive Euston 09.15
dep LST 10.13 arrive BIC 10.45

Actual
dep Wigan 07.25 arrive Euston 09.25
transfer Euston to Stratford via Northern and Elizabeth Line arriving Stratford (SRA) 09.55.
dep SRA 09.57 arrive BIC 10.21

I nearly missed the connection at SRA because I headed straight to platform 10, only to discover that train would be at 10A. Good job it was a 10 coach train as it was coming in just as I reached that very long platform.

Same day I complied with the journey planner returning from Billericay at 13.57 for the 15.30 from Euston.

Stratford platform 10/10A is a ridiculous and disgraceful trap.

Totally unnecessary.

 

[duffield]

Stratford platform 10/10A is a ridiculous and disgraceful trap.

Totally unnecessary.

It's just one of the several quirky charms of Stratford station, intended to bemuse and delight the uninitiated.

 

[JBuchananGB]

Totally off-topic for this thread of course which is about minimum connection time between London terminals, but included some discussion on connecting between Euston and Liverpool Street. Nowadays if the onward connection calls at Stratford, the Northern/Elizabeth Line route is very quick. As regards platforms 10/10A at Stratford, GA make very efficient use of these platforms, sometimes alternating Chelmsford line and Southend line trains so as to have a very close headway between them when needed. Which is why the 0955 Braintree goes from 10, the 0958 Southend goes from 10A.