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Fasting drivers

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Qwerty133

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With Ramadan currently ongoing I'm wondering what measures are in place to ensure drivers who haven't eaten or even drank in up to 18 hours are fully alert and safe to be performing safety critical tasks, where human lives are at risk?
 
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Iskra

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I don't know specifically about railway working conditions, but in general employment there's nothing that says you must eat or drink anything to be able to work, providing breaks are had.
 

Iskra

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Surely there must be something in regulations on the subject of dehydration?

As I say I can't speak for railways, but:

My company has a policy on remaining hydrated, but I don't believe they are legally compelled to have even that. Equally, there's nothing to say anyone has to eat anything at work.

Not sure how it would be enforced anyway...
 

30907

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There's a strong thread in the literature about the Christian tradition of fasting that it makes one more alert rather than less. I would imagine this isn't confined to Christian or even religious experience.

In Islam I believe travellers are exempt from fasting anyway.
 

Antman

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With Ramadan currently ongoing I'm wondering what measures are in place to ensure drivers who haven't eaten or even drank in up to 18 hours are fully alert and safe to be performing safety critical tasks, where human lives are at risk?

That's a good question, there are possible safety concerns. I guess the onus is on each individual to decide whether or not they are fit for work.
 

me123

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I don't know what, if any, rules or safeguards that the railway has in place. As Iskra has said, it's a professional responsibility for individuals involved to ensure that their fasting does not compromise the safety of themselves or others at work - this holds true not only for Ramadan, but in other situations too (for example, it would surely be considered unprofessional for a driver to turn up at work under the influences of a "legal high", even though there may not be a specific rule about the substance in question - if they were putting their passengers' safety at risk, it would surely be an extremely serious issue).

We should, of course, respect the wishes and beliefs of our Islamic colleagues and respect their right to observe Ramadan in their way, provided their practices do not impact on others. An excellent quote from a Ramadan advice website I've found explains this quite nicely:
While you are proposing a plan that you believe will enable you to work as productively as possible, your boss will be battling against other business dynamics which may affect how much flexibility he or she can offer. Your firm has the right to refuse your requests but only if there are clear business reasons for doing so, not due to your faith or observation of Ramadan.
Link

As such, I think it's reasonable to assume that should a fasting driver put the safety of his passengers at risk (for example, through a hypoglycaemic coma), it would be appropriate for this to be considered a disciplinary case - but it would be in breach of the equality act to ban drivers from fasting on grounds of their religion.

Of course, practicing Muslims have a right to fast. However, I would agree that it's more important that they don't put the safety of themselves and others at stake in doing so - indeed, some groups are considered exempt from fasting. Children, pregnant women, the elderly, the infirm etc are exempt. Indeed, even otherwise healthy muslims can eat in cases of "intense hunger". There are various opinions on the subject of working adults that I've seen online, which include advising people to work night shifts or take annual leave during Ramadan. It is, after all, an extremely important part of the religion, and an extremely holy month for Muslims. If it's not possible to alter your working pattern, it is generally advised that people do eat as little as possible, but sustain themselves in order to do their job. In general, it is considered a sin to risk the life of yourself or others through your fasting.

I'm not a Muslim, but I'd be very keen to hear from the Islamic community about their thoughts on this.

And, of course, what I've said about fasting applies not only to the Islamic community during Ramadan, but to all other fasting, whether it be for religious, dietary, or other reasons.

And, let's also consider, how many train drivers are "fasting" at work anyway? Plenty of people don't eat breakfast, and I'd imagine that that will include at least some train drivers.
 

dk1

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Well everyday there is something new that surprises me. Think I've heard it all now :roll:
 

Qwerty133

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Well everyday there is something new that surprises me. Think I've heard it all now :roll:

Why?
I'm clearly not the first person with such questions, as seen by the guide posted in this thread, as well as the reaction from everyone else, who have provided helpful answers.
 

LateThanNever

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That's a good question, there are possible safety concerns. I guess the onus is on each individual to decide whether or not they are fit for work.
I agree. Although in fact, as part of the brain's blood supply is diverted for some considerable time during the digestion of a big - or even small - Mac, I'd rather have the Muslim driver! Mind you having no water for 18 hours, I'd certianly rather he'd tanked up before coming on duty - which might in turn lead to difficulties en route...
I've eventually come to the conclusion that atheism should be a necessary part of route knowledge.
 

dk1

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Why?
I'm clearly not the first person with such questions, as seen by the guide posted in this thread, as well as the reaction from everyone else, who have provided helpful answers.

Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

God (excuse the pun) but I would hate to run my own business these days what with this, paternity leave & other entitlements. For a smaller company it must be a nightmare.
 
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Bayum

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Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

What a silly statement.

Why wouldn't you apply for a job for a once a year festival?

I'm sure the benefits of employment through a TOC far outweigh the possibility of having to take time off in such a time.

If religion were to 'get in the way' of a job then I'd no doubt the job wouldn't have been applied for in the first place. :roll:
 

LAX54

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Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

Not sure that 'going without' would cause too much hassle, maybe a grumbly tum ! anyway if they feel that concerned they will either go 'sick' or have some annual leave
 

dk1

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Not sure that 'going without' would cause too much hassle, maybe a grumbly tum ! anyway if they feel that concerned they will either go 'sick' or have some annual leave

Sounds fair to me. Practice your beliefs in your own time & do what we pay you for in ours :)
 

LateThanNever

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Been on railway 30 years & ive never ever considered it. Why would you apply for the job if your religion would get in the way?

God (excuse the pun) but I would hate to run my own business these days what with this, paternity leave & other entitlements. For a smaller company it must be a nightmare.
It is - and that is why UKIP's more glamourous pronouncements are so tresaured by them, If you have 3 employees and one falls pregnant to go on maternity leave you are snookered legally. You hope you have sufficient rapport and engagement with the employee to progress the business by cooperating. But it is only a hope - that youv'e made them feel so wanted!- otherwise, start again. And with difficulty. The politicians do not understand - in spite of running sort of small businesses themselves - that corporate business is not small business!
 

dk1

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What a silly statement.

Why wouldn't you apply for a job for a once a year festival?

I'm sure the benefits of employment through a TOC far outweigh the possibility of having to take time off in such a time.

If religion were to 'get in the way' of a job then I'd no doubt the job wouldn't have been applied for in the first place. :roll:

Silly, not at all. Doesn't it come round on an annual basis? As traincrew you go into a holiday roster & take what you are given unless lucky enough to get a changeover. I also know those who have their favourite music festivals but cannot always attend.
 

me123

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But given that the vast majority of Muslims do make reasonable exceptions for those who need to eat for professional reasons, such as train drivers, pilots, doctors, nurses... then it's not really an issue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sounds fair to me. Practice your beliefs in your own time & do what we pay you for in ours :)

In all fairness, most employers don't pay their empolyees to eat - that's what your lunch break is for. And I'm pretty sure it's not compulsory.
 

dk1

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In all fairness, most employers don't pay their empolyees to eat - that's what your lunch break is for. And I'm pretty sure it's not compulsory.

Traincrew only have paid breaks as anything else would be classed as a split shift & very much a no no in these grades. We are advised to drink water etc on a regular basis & sometimes they attempt to brainwash us into healthy eating. Now that does make me yawn.
 

themeone

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In Islam I believe travellers are exempt from fasting anyway.

I've also heard that, and I suppose a train driver could be classed as a traveller.

In general I've found less food makes me more alert not less.
 

me123

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Traincrew only have paid breaks as anything else would be classed as a split shift & very much a no no in these grades. We are advised to drink water etc on a regular basis & sometimes they attempt to brainwash us into healthy eating. Now that does make me yawn.

But still, you're not required to eat, surely? You'll probably be required to be in a healthy state in order to perform your duties safely, and given that a Muslim train driver will eat a large breakfast before dawn, they could very possibly manage the whole day with minimal sustenance during Ramadan, again remembering that they would generally be permitted to eat and drink if absolutely necessary.

I've forgotten about the travellers thing as well, which probably was originally intended to cover people walking through the deserts of the Middle East, but could very well be manipulated to cover train drivers.
 

asylumxl

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There are many situations where the Quran suggests you do not fast (but some fools do) such as being pregnant or ill, but more importantly the general rule is you shouldn't fast if you risk causing harm to yourself. I think this could come under the latter.

Having said that, while the fast lasts a long time when it falls in Summer, are there any diagrams that would actually last anywhere near 18 hours? I imagine that tiredness would become an issue irrelevant of whether someone was fasting or not ;).

While it's not the same, I know of bus drivers who save up their annual leave and use it during Ramadan, which seems the most sensible way to go about it.
 

Antman

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Sounds fair to me. Practice your beliefs in your own time & do what we pay you for in ours :)

Well that's the way I'd look at it, what anyone does in their own time is their business but if it effects their work and the safety of others it's very much their employers business. Without getting into religious debate I've tried 'fasting' to keep my waistline in check and it certainly can make you tired and going without fluids is just asking for trouble as I'm sure any doctor will confirm.
 

theironroad

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I feel for any Muslim colleagues who are observing Ramadan this year. As Ramadan has only just started and people are adapting to the fast, along comes June 21 aka the summer solstice or longest day. It is a long time to go without food or drink.

The Quran ( or sharia or Hadith) allows for travellers to abstain from fast as well as some others. One of the most important elements in this is the relationship between the person fasting ( the driver in this thread) and his imam. The imam is in a position to grant a temporary waiver from fast where this is essential.

While food is not essential in a 24 hour cycle, it is important to stay hydrated. However, if a driver is hungry and his or her hunger is impacting on concentration, then this could impact performance.

With sensible management from driver managers and a sensible interpretation from the driver's imam, then there is no reason that the driver cannot carry out their normal duties.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and on a slightly lighter note....let's be honest there are plenty of drivers ( me included) who could do with a period of fasting to reduce their overweightness. ( not really a word). Plenty of drivers are storing up medical issues of high blood pressure, cholesterol issues and cardiac issues through poor diet and shift work.
 

Antman

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I feel for any Muslim colleagues who are observing Ramadan this year. As Ramadan has only just started and people are adapting to the fast, along comes June 21 aka the summer solstice or longest day. It is a long time to go without food or drink.

The Quran ( or sharia or Hadith) allows for travellers to abstain from fast as well as some others. One of the most important elements in this is the relationship between the person fasting ( the driver in this thread) and his imam. The imam is in a position to grant a temporary waiver from fast where this is essential.

While food is not essential in a 24 hour cycle, it is important to stay hydrated. However, if a driver is hungry and his or her hunger is impacting on concentration, then this could impact performance.

With sensible management from driver managers and a sensible interpretation from the driver's imam, then there is no reason that the driver cannot carry out their normal duties.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
...and on a slightly lighter note....let's be honest there are plenty of drivers ( me included) who could do with a period of fasting to reduce their overweightness. ( not really a word). Plenty of drivers are storing up medical issues of high blood pressure, cholesterol issues and cardiac issues through poor diet and shift work.

I'm really not one for religion and I would say the first priority of any driver (road or rail) is to ensure they are fit for work when they turn up.

Yes poor diet, shift work and a job that involves very little physical exercise are not a good combination healthwise.
 

amateur

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Where is the longest fast in the world?

In Reykjavik, Iceland, the fast will be about 21 hours 57 minutes long in the beginning of the month, with a fast starting at 2:03am and finishing at midnight.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Where is the longest fast in the world?

In Reykjavik, Iceland, the fast will be about 21 hours 57 minutes long in the beginning of the month, with a fast starting at 2:03am and finishing at midnight.

I remember seeing somewhere on the web recently some Muslims in the Land of the Midnight Sun having to seek clarification from Muslim authorities since they had no sunset in which to break their fast.
 
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