Farringdon to Brighton to Clapham Junction

[b0b]

I'm going to respectfully disagree that you can skip fares checking if you have no doubt the routing points you wish to use are "appropriate".

My interpretation of "appropriateness" is "passes fares check rule". And I accept that can lead to zero appropriate routing points and hence zero mapped routes. And I accept that might contradict the wording in the routing guide.

We should try and come up with some test cases to find fares where zero routeing points pass a fares check and test out the online ticket engine to see how they are interpreting the routing guide. The test cases could be hard to find however.

 

[RJ]

Hi all,

On Saturday I have to do the following route:

Outgoing around 10:30 Farringdon (ZFD) to Brighton (£15.40 single) Return around 18:45 Brighton to Clapham Junction (£10 single) Total £25.40.

Can I use a £15.50 Farringdon-Brighton-Farringdon return instead?

The BrFares website has a restriction of NOT UNDERGROUND for this fare (CDR OFF-PEAK DAY R): http://www.brfares.com/#fares? orig=ZFD&dest=BTN&rlc=%20%20%20

So my questions: 1) Is this like the ANY PERMITTED restriction so I can get First Capital Connect out and Southern back as long as I do not use the tube? 2) Can I return with Southern and get off at Clapham Junction?

Thanks,

Dan

1) In this specific scenario, yes.

2.) Yes.

 

[b0b]

ATOC specifically insist that you must use a through rail route for ticket routed Not Underground. If you get done over by Southern, don't expect ATOC to provide a validity analysis in your favour.

Brighton - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - walk to Waterloo East - London Bridge - City Thameslink - Farringdon is a valid route for Brighton to Farringdon, or do you disagree? (on map LB)

 

[RJ]

Brighton - Clapham Junction - Waterloo - walk to Waterloo East - London Bridge - City Thameslink - Farringdon is a valid route for Brighton to Farringdon, or do you disagree? (on map LB)

Ok, under the 3 mile rule it would be valid. Post edited accordingly.

Yes, I can admit I made a mistake, unlike some other esteemed members of this forum

 

[b0b]

I would advise the OP to keep a copy of map LB handy though (or at least the 'route' he wants to take and that he's breaking at CJ) as he might get some grief on the East Croydon - Clapham Junction section, or at the Clapham Junction gateline for being "off route"

 

[johnnycache]

I work for Southern
it grieves me that a Farringdon to Brighton "route not underground" ticket is valid for travel between Brighton and Clapham Junction (as my company will get virtually zero revenue from it) but its quite clear looking at map LB that Brighton-Clapham Junction-Waterloo/Waterloo East-London Bridge-Farringdon
is a permitted route and therefore a break of journey at Clapham Junction is legitimate. Please let me know if i'm wrong!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....(as my company will get virtually zero revenue from it)....

Revenue distribution has nothing to do with validity.

 

[yorkie]

Revenue distribution has nothing to do with validity.

True, which johnnycache knows, so he accepts it is valid.

There are loads of tickets that give very little revenue (or, in some cases, absolutely no revenue) to TOCs that can still be used, at least in part, for the journey. (Random example : A combination of York-Church Fenton Season ticket plus a Church Fenton-Leeds SDR will not give CrossCountry any revenue but is valid).

 

[34D]

Revenue distribution has nothing to do with validity.

I'd be surprised though if orcats gave 'virtually no revenue' from that ticket to Southern though.

 

[RJ]

I work for Southern
it grieves me that a Farringdon to Brighton "route not underground" ticket is valid for travel between Brighton and Clapham Junction (as my company will get virtually zero revenue from it) but its quite clear looking at map LB that Brighton-Clapham Junction-Waterloo/Waterloo East-London Bridge-Farringdon
is a permitted route and therefore a break of journey at Clapham Junction is legitimate. Please let me know if i'm wrong!

Fair point, but you have to consider how many people will actually use that ticket to travel by that route in reality. Very few people are conversant with the National Routeing Guide and the route is not shown as valid in any of the journey planners.

 

[Paul Kelly]

I'd be surprised though if orcats gave 'virtually no revenue' from that ticket to Southern though.

From my limited knowledge of ORCATS, I guess the reasoning would be that you're always going to have to change onto a FCC service at some stage for the last bit of the journey to Farringdon. Said service would likely have originated in Brighton anyway. and it would be possible to make the whole journey on it with no changes. To make part of the journey with Southern would mean (a) a change is necessary somewhere, and (b) there is a longer journey time. Since direct trains with a shorter journey time are available ORCATS will probably allocate the vast majority of the revenue to the operator of those trains.

 

[yorkie]

From my limited knowledge of ORCATS, I guess the reasoning would be that you're always going to have to change onto a FCC service at some stage for the last bit of the journey to Farringdon. Said service would likely have originated in Brighton anyway. and it would be possible to make the whole journey on it with no changes. To make part of the journey with Southern would mean (a) a change is necessary somewhere, and (b) there is a longer journey time. Since direct trains with a shorter journey time are available ORCATS will probably allocate the vast majority of the revenue to the operator of those trains.

True. I could do York-London by taking Northern (to Doncaster, changing at Selby), EMT (to Peterborough) and FCC (to London), it'd be valid but there are no journey opportunities where this combination of trains would be quick, so I doubt much - if any - revenue gets allocated to those TOCs. But they are bound by the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement to accept such a ticket. I could alternatively use TPE (to Leeds) and then EMT (to London), and the same issue would apply. But the number of passengers that would do that is tiny so it's not a big problem. I am sure some TOCs would rather ORCATS was replaced by smart card ticketing that records the actual route and thus allocates revenue but I think that would be decades off before paper tickets are eliminated.

 

[tannedfrog]

Isn't there someone on this forum who works on Clapham Junction gateline?
I'd be interested to know if the barriers will accept the above ticket and whether s/he would know about map LB

 

[globetrotter]

Would the same principles apply if substituting Kings Cross / St. Pancras for Farringdon as the starting point?

The fare seems the same so it seems to me that a ticket from KGX would also be valid via CLJ as described in this thread.

 

[RJ]

Would the same principles apply if substituting Kings Cross / St. Pancras for Farringdon as the starting point?

The fare seems the same so it seems to me that a ticket from KGX would also be valid via CLJ as described in this thread.

Of course a ticket from KGX would be valid via Clapham Junction, because it would be issued from and subsequently valid from London Terminals, i.e those south of Farringdon. If using a ticket issued from the Underground Zones then it would also be valid.

 

[globetrotter]

Of course a ticket from KGX would be valid via Clapham Junction, because it would be issued from and subsequently valid from London Terminals, i.e those south of Farringdon. If using a ticket issued from the Underground Zones then it would also be valid.

Not any ticket, but the one at the fare described in this thread.

 

[dandodex]

Isn't there someone on this forum who works on Clapham Junction gateline?
I'd be interested to know if the barriers will accept the above ticket and whether s/he would know about map LB

So, I did the trip this weekend. FCC down to Brighton and Southern to CLJ. The ticket didn't open the gate at CLJ but the big gate was open so handed my ticket to the person at the gate who did not really check it because of the number of people passing through and left. I didn't really fancy having to produce and explain the LB routing printout!

Thanks all for your help! I can't help but feel that ticketing is very broken in this country.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Of course a ticket from KGX would be valid via Clapham Junction, because it would be issued from and subsequently valid from London Terminals, i.e those south of Farringdon. If using a ticket issued from the Underground Zones then it would also be valid.

I rather suspect the query was regarding a St Pancras-Brighton ticket rather than London Terminals-Brighton ticket or Zone U1-Brighton ticket. A St Pancras-Brighton (Rte Not Underground) ticket would be valid by the same routes as Farringdon-Brighton (Rte Not Underground).