Farnworth Tunnel Electrification.

[Starmill]

What's going to be happening with the smaller bore, as it's left after the work?

Also, can anyone offer a rough summary of current linespeed between Salford and Bolton? Most current stock being limited to 75 and all...

 

[Inox]

The smaller bore is going to be used for cabling.

page 411 onwards of this (LARGE!) pdf:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/sectional%20appendix/london%20north%20western%20north%20sectional%20appendix.pdf

speed varies, but mostly 75 once you're past acecroft jct.

 

[driver9000]

What's going to be happening with the smaller bore, as it's left after the work?

Also, can anyone offer a rough summary of current linespeed between Salford and Bolton? Most current stock being limited to 75 and all...

Bolton-Burnden Junction 40mph. Rises to 60mph to roughly half way between Moses Gate and Farnworth where it rises to 75mph before falling to 50mph on the Salford Crescent avoiding line (25mph to platform).

Down platform through Crescent is 50mph falling to 40mph for the curve then rising to 75mph. Falls to 50mph through Farnworth tunnel, rises to 60mph at the exit and falls to 40mph at Burnden junction.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The smaller bore is going to be used for cabling.

And possibly a bat roost. Stay tuned ...
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This is my source btw.

https://twitter.com/thealexweb/status/563692886915817472

Read it again; the response is about Salford - Bolton - Chorley, not Bolton - Blackburn.

 

[Darren R]

I know it's a little bit off-topic, but since the question of platform lengths between Bolton and Clitheroe has been raised a propos running six-car trains during the tunnel works, I've just checked what the Sectional Appendix has to say on the matter.

I can't help being amused to discover the only station that comes close to being long enough to accommodate a six-car train (apart from Blackburn) is Entwistle, with a mighty platform 119m long!

 

[mr_jrt]

Apologies for the thread drift, but would a similar tunnelling solution be viable for finally sorting out the situation on the Hastings line? Admittedly there are several that would need doing, but even just doing the Somerhill tunnel (375m) would remove the constraint for the services that terminate at Tunbridge Wells...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Apologies for the thread drift, but would a similar tunnelling solution be viable for finally sorting out the situation on the Hastings line? Admittedly there are several that would need doing, but even just doing the Somerhill tunnel (375m) would remove the constraint for the services that terminate at Tunbridge Wells...

Great question - spread the cost do 1 tunnel per year.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Apologies for the thread drift, but would a similar tunnelling solution be viable for finally sorting out the situation on the Hastings line? Admittedly there are several that would need doing, but even just doing the Somerhill tunnel (375m) would remove the constraint for the services that terminate at Tunbridge Wells...

Great question - spread the cost do 1 tunnel per year.

Problem is, those tunnels have already been singled, so the single line working being used at Farnworth isn't an option. It'd be fine once the work was done, but far more disruptive whilst the work is carried out!

 

[edwin_m]

Are the single lines on the Hastings line enough of a limitation to warrant the huge cost and disruption of opening out the tunnels?

 

[thealexweb]

Bolton-Burnden Junction 40mph. Rises to 60mph to roughly half way between Moses Gate and Farnworth where it rises to 75mph before falling to 50mph on the Salford Crescent avoiding line (25mph to platform).

Down platform through Crescent is 50mph falling to 40mph for the curve then rising to 75mph. Falls to 50mph through Farnworth tunnel, rises to 60mph at the exit and falls to 40mph at Burnden junction.

Is the planned 100mph going to be pretty consistent between Salford and Bolton?

 

[snowball]

Problem is, those tunnels have already been singled, so the single line working being used at Farnworth isn't an option. It'd be fine once the work was done, but far more disruptive whilst the work is carried out!

Are the tunnels single bore or double bore?

If they're single bore then enlarging the tunnels would require a long total closure of the line anyway. If they're double bore you just enlarge the unused bore, lay a track through it and do the necessary slewing at the ends.

So either way, there's no extra difficulty due to the fact that the track has already been singled.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is the planned 100mph going to be pretty consistent between Salford and Bolton?

Not funded yet, so it stays at 75mph until it is ...

 

[Philip]

Not funded yet, so it stays at 75mph until it is ...

In the Network Rail video about the works posted earlier the consultant never mentioned the linespeed upgrade being subject to funding. He seemed to be saying it was going to happen along with the wiring and the new footbridge.

 

[Chris125]

Are the single lines on the Hastings line enough of a limitation to warrant the huge cost and disruption of opening out the tunnels?

I doubt it would make much if any difference to capacity or journey times, certainly not enough to justify the cost and disruption - electrifying Marshlink and extending HS1 services would seem a better investment.

 

[snail]

This is getting very confusing. Can we stick to talking about the Farnworth tunnels?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is getting very confusing. Can we stick to talking about the Farnworth tunnels?

Indeed so. I half-expected some off-thread matter to surface on here, but Hastings is rather more distance-wise from the Farnworth tunnels than any mention of the Bolton-Blackburn-Clitheroe line which at least carries services running through the Farnworth tunnels.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

In the Network Rail video about the works posted earlier the consultant never mentioned the linespeed upgrade being subject to funding. He seemed to be saying it was going to happen along with the wiring and the new footbridge.

The video is about Farnworth Tunnel which, when complete, will support 100mph running in both directions. However, if you consult a good quality map you will notice that Kearsley (the nearest point off the southern end of the Farnworth scheme) is roughly 6 miles from Salford Crescent. This 6 miles will be fitted with OLE capable of supporting 100mph; however this 6 miles does not form part of the Farnworth scheme and any planned upgrade in speed on it is (currently) subject to funding, which is what I said.

If you are going to take me to task about Farnworth station to Bolton 100mph, very little of it will be even if it is funded, since the 20mph at the north end of Bolton will always be there.

 

[Senex]

If you are going to take me to task about Farnworth station to Bolton 100mph, very little of it will be even if it is funded, since the 20mph at the north end of Bolton will always be there.

Is that 20 the best that (certainly very sharp) curve will allow, or is it 20 because it always has been?

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Is that 20 the best that (certainly very sharp) curve will allow, or is it 20 because it always has been?

It will, theoretically stand 25mph if it were completely relayed in CWR and remodelled to remove the S&C; the cant and deficiency would be on the limit and all for very little gain.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The plan for weekday services during the closure will be a standard hourly pattern of:

1tph Preston-Hazel Grove
1tph Blackpool North-Victoria
1tph Clitheroe-Victoria

At peak times only TPE will run services between Preston and the Airport via Bolton apparently using 6 carriage formations. There seems to be conflicting information about whether or not TPE will operate off-peak services.

Southport-Airport services will be diverted via Atherton.

Kirkby-Victoria services will instead run to Bolton calling at Westhoughton.

The - admittedly rather vague - internal information I have seen indicates that TPE will only operate via Bolton at peak times, but is currently struggling to find enough resources to operate services as 6 cars, without shortforming or amending services on other routes, especially as this coincides with some of the 170s leaving to Chiltern and some 156s being used on TPE services to / from Blackpool.

I suspect that whatever happens there will be significant capacity problems at all times - although especially in the peaks on the Bolton corridor.

 

[northwichcat]

I suspect that whatever happens there will be significant capacity problems at all times - although especially in the peaks on the Bolton corridor.

I think a number of weekday off-peak services will struggle in school holidays as will the Saturday evening services in to Manchester.

 

[scrapy]

Line will be closed at weekends so Saturday evening services will only struggle with capacity not enough buses ordered, although usually on bus replacements supply usually exceeds demand.

 

[Starmill]

Line will be closed at weekends so Saturday evening services will only struggle with capacity not enough buses ordered, although usually on bus replacements supply usually exceeds demand.

Only because people don't want to travel by bus!

I assume trains to Preston will still be absolutely rammed then!

 

[Senex]

It will, theoretically stand 25mph if it were completely relayed in CWR and remodelled to remove the S&C; the cant and deficiency would be on the limit and all for very little gain.

Thanks for that -- it must be one really small-radius curve if the best possible (with 150 mm + 130 mm deficiency, I assume) is only 25!

 

[Ships]

Thanks for that -- it must be one really small-radius curve if the best possible (with 150 mm + 130 mm deficiency, I assume) is only 25!

Doesn't work like that, for one you're can't transitions would have to be massive and you can't have over 80 or 90mm of can't in a platform. Also there's S&C there which would get in the way.
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Also most trains stop at Bolton so out that sort of cant on and you'll be causing all sorts of maintainence issues such as sidewear.
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Not funded yet, so it stays at 75mph until it is ...

I've seen the LSI speed profiles for MVE1 and there's definitely some thing afoot. From what Ive seen its nothing like 100mph through out. Also I believe any renewals will be designed to the LSI line speeds (passive provision).

 

[Howardh]

How do they work out how fast a train can go round a sharp curve? They clearly can't practice on a real curve in case it comes off the rails and causes damage, but are there test tracks where driver-less trains are tested at various speeds until they come off the rails, and set the limit a few % under that??
I suppose these days it's all done by computers and virtual trains, which would be apt for round here as yesterday we virtually had a train.

 

[edwin_m]

How do they work out how fast a train can go round a sharp curve? They clearly can't practice on a real curve in case it comes off the rails and causes damage, but are there test tracks where driver-less trains are tested at various speeds until they come off the rails, and set the limit a few % under that??
I suppose these days it's all done by computers and virtual trains, which would be apt for round here as yesterday we virtually had a train.

Laws of physics. The standard defines the maximum lateral acceleration that is comfortable for passengers, which incidentally is a lot less than the fastest the train could go without overturning. From that it's easy to work out the maximum speed for a particular radius and cant. The track engineer then chooses how much cant should be applied based on things like keeping the buildup of cant within limits and minimising rail wear when trains pass at a mixture of speeds.
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Doesn't work like that, for one you're can't transitions would have to be massive and you can't have over 80 or 90mm of can't in a platform. Also there's S&C there which would get in the way.

I think your predictive text can't distinguish "can't" from "cant"...

 

[Trackman]

I've heard (Man in the pub talk) they are building a slip road off the A666 to a compound. Also NR are taking over the house nearest to the tunnel on the down line - on the eastern side. Anyone have any info?

 

[snowball]

Deleted

 

[Ships]

Laws of physics. The standard defines the maximum lateral acceleration that is comfortable for passengers, which incidentally is a lot less than the fastest the train could go without overturning. From that it's easy to work out the maximum speed for a particular radius and cant. The track engineer then chooses how much cant should be applied based on things like keeping the buildup of cant within limits and minimising rail wear when trains pass at a mixture of speeds.
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I think your predictive text can't distinguish "can't" from "cant"...

Curses,you would be correct.

There is also the rate of gain of cant which would be a limitation here, your transitions are arguably the most important part of the curve and in Bolton platform you're restricted by the platform face till just before the curve and you probably couldn't go from 0 to 150mm in the short space you have (at least if you where going for a modest speed increase).

Although a fag packet hallade scheme could be called for!