Farnborugh to Maidstone via Cuxton using HS1

[Bill Badger]

I would like to travel from Farnborough to Maidstone via Cuxton using HS1. Looking at the routing guide this appears to be OK and the FGW Website will sell me a ticket for £18 (off peak day return with Gold Card) which is routed Farnborough Main to Waterloo; tube to St Pancras, HS1 to Stood and hence to Maidstone West.

Just wondering if someone with more ticketing knowledge than me could confirm that this is a valid route and that there would be no supplement payable on the HS1 leg of the journey?

Cheers

 

[yorkie]

The only tickets are routed +Any Permitted.

For travel via London on a +Any Permitted ticket, permitted routes are as follows:

• All the permitted routes between origin (Farnborough) and London,
• cross-London transfer (as appropriate) included,
• All the permitted routes between London and destination (Maidstone Stns)
  (and vice-versa)

Permitted routes are defined in the Routeing Guide. Obviously, via HS1 is a permitted route.

There isn't a "Not HS1" option, so there is no ticket that exists to which a supplement/excess can be applied.

 

[Bill Badger]

Many thanks confirming so quickly; I shall go ahead on Saturday.

Interestingly, whilst researching this trip I discovered that a Farnborough to Cuxton ticket only appears to be available with a 'route not Underground' option. If I try to force it to go via HS1, by putting via Ebbsfleet, it says there are no tickets available.

 

[MikeWh]

Many thanks confirming so quickly; I shall go ahead on Saturday.

Interestingly, whilst researching this trip I discovered that a Farnborough to Cuxton ticket only appears to be available with a 'route not Underground' option. If I try to force it to go via HS1, by putting via Ebbsfleet, it says there are no tickets available.

Might not work when the Thameslink core is closed at weekends, but otherwise you can go Waterloo East - London Bridge - St Pancras.

 

[yorkie]

A debate did crop up recently regarding whether or not "London Not Und" meant that routes were still valid as per the Routeing Guide but you have to make your own way between termini as appropriate, or whether the fact that the Underground was prohibited meant that you could not change termini. The discussion did not reach a conclusive answer. However if terms are unclear, there is legislation that deals with that (which I won't bore people with again )

 

[MarkyMarkD]

On a vaguely related topic, why is it not permitted to travel, with a normal National Rail ticket (i.e. not a Travelcard), via HS1 to City Thameslink from places like Chatham/Rochester?

Please note that ‘London Terminals’ tickets do not permit travel between City Thameslink, Farringdon and St Pancras International on the First Capital Connect ‘Thameslink’ route. Such journeys will require a ticket either to the named station or to a destination of ‘London Thameslink’ or to 'Zone U1'.

Despite paying the HS1 supplement for a ticket to "London Terminals", it isn't permitted to use Thameslink to get to City Thameslink, apparently.

Perhaps it's a "no doubling back" thing, but travelling via St Pancras (from Kent/Medway) to most places in London involves some sort of doubling back.

The rule I quoted is all very well, but can you actually book tickets from Chatham/Rochester to "London Thameslink" or "Zone U1"?

(I think not - all that you get if you ask for one of them is a Travelcard).

I have actually been sold a +HS1 ticket from Chatham to City Thameslink - or at least, that's what I asked for, and I got a "London Terminals" +HS1 ticket which the FCC entry barriers at STP then rejected (but staff let me in).

The Travelcard isn't even the sensible option - you can split at STP and use Oyster from STP to CTK for just £3.80 return rather than the £5.40 add-on for a Travelcard.

Why does it make sense for ATOC to sell Travelcards which presumably involve them handing over most of the add-on cost to TFL, rather than keeping all the money for ATOC operators?

 

[yorkie]

On a vaguely related topic, why is it not permitted to travel, with a normal National Rail ticket (i.e. not a Travelcard), via HS1 to City Thameslink from places like Chatham/Rochester?

I agree the rules are ludicrous, but there is a ticket that allows this.

Chatham-Zone U1* Londn
Anytime Day Single (SDS) £21.40
Off Peak Return (SVR) £31.60
Anytime Day Return (SDR) £40.80

Despite paying the HS1 supplement for a ticket to "London Terminals", it isn't permitted to use Thameslink to get to City Thameslink, apparently.

The supplement that allows "Not HS1" tickets to be used on HS1 is effectively a change of route excess. It is not an over-distance excess. The destination is considered to be the same, namely London Terminals. Of course, that does make a mockery of the system because that means you can't *officially* reach the same *physical* station.

I'd love it if someone was prepared to challenge this by going to court if necessary.

Perhaps it's a "no doubling back" thing, but travelling via St Pancras (from Kent/Medway) to most places in London involves some sort of doubling back.

I'm confused by this statement.

Doubling back is defined as passing through the same station more than once, and is not permitted (except where an easement or station grouping allows it). I do not think that this is necessary when travelling from Kent/Medway to most places in London? In fact, what tickets is this necessary for?

The rule I quoted is all very well, but can you actually book tickets from Chatham/Rochester to "London Thameslink" or "Zone U1"?

To Zone U1 Londn, yes.

This destination does not have a 3-letter code, however it has the location code 0785. This code can be put into station booking systems and also WebTIS online booking systems (but not the appalling Trainline site, which is best avoided anyway)

(I think not - all that you get if you ask for one of them is a Travelcard).

You should be issued it. Have you experienced problems? If so, where?

I have actually been sold a +HS1 ticket from Chatham to City Thameslink - or at least, that's what I asked for, and I got a "London Terminals" +HS1 ticket which the FCC entry barriers at STP then rejected (but staff let me in).

If you ask specifically for London City Thameslink, and staff sell that, then that does create an interesting situation and I would argue that it is legally binding that you should be allowed to travel there (but IANAL). However it'd be your word against theirs, and the railway can be anti-customer at times. I am glad to hear that you were let through though, though I've heard bad things about the barriers at STP, clearly they aren't all bad!

Why does it make sense for ATOC to sell Travelcards which presumably involve them handing over most of the add-on cost to TFL, rather than keeping all the money for ATOC operators?

Not quite sure what you are proposing exactly?

 

[MarkyMarkD]

I agree the rules are ludicrous, but there is a ticket that allows this.

Chatham-Zone U1* Londn
Anytime Day Single (SDS) £21.40
Off Peak Return (SVR) £31.60
Anytime Day Return (SDR) £40.80

But the fare for that is more expensive than an Anytime Day Travelcard - by 60p. In other words it's a ludicrous fare. And the Anytime Day Travelcard is itself more expensive than the split fare of £38.60 with Oyster.

The supplement that allows "Not HS1" tickets to be used on HS1 is effectively a change of route excess. It is not an over-distance excess. The destination is considered to be the same, namely London Terminals. Of course, that does make a mockery of the system because that means you can't *officially* reach the same *physical* station.

I'd love it if someone was prepared to challenge this by going to court if necessary.

I understand what you mean. Except that the reason a lot of people in Kent/Medway object to the price premium for HS1 is that their overall journey is further via STP than it is via other stations which previously (pre-HS1) had more fast trains. And, even worse, you cannot get to some stations you could get to with a straightforward "London Terminals" ticket because of this odd restriction on the use of Thameslink.

I'm confused by this statement.

Doubling back is defined as passing through the same station more than once, and is not permitted (except where an easement or station grouping allows it). I do not think that this is necessary when travelling from Kent/Medway to most places in London? In fact, what tickets is this necessary for?

Sorry - mis-use of terminology. I think I mean "going the longer way around" as effectively CTM - STP - CTK involves travelling further north than you need to and then travelling back south. But that would apply to lots of journeys using HS1 (but then the extra distance would often be on the underground).

To Zone U1 Londn, yes.

This destination does not have a 3-letter code, however it has the location code 0785. This code can be put into station booking systems and also WebTIS online booking systems (but not the appalling Trainline site, which is best avoided anyway)

You should be issued it. Have you experienced problems? If so, where?

As per previously, there's no point in this fare existing because it's wrongly priced: more than a Travelcard and even more than the split fare.

If you ask specifically for London City Thameslink, and staff sell that, then that does create an interesting situation and I would argue that it is legally binding that you should be allowed to travel there (but IANAL). However it'd be your word against theirs, and the railway can be anti-customer at times. I am glad to hear that you were let through though, though I've heard bad things about the barriers at STP, clearly they aren't all bad!

Another similar situation arises when you ask for a return to any London Terminals station other than Victoria, at "super off peak" times of day. The only route on which Super Offpeak fares exist is to Victoria, but station staff ALWAYS sell Super Offpeak tickets (printed "London Victoria" not "London Terminals" anyway. Anyone using an automated ticket machine would pay a lot more.

Not quite sure what you are proposing exactly?

I'm proposing that there should be non-Travelcard fares which are cheaper than Travelcard fares, because of the saving in not having to pass a share of revenue to TFL. Travelcard fares should be higher, because of the far increased flexibility.

Also the CTM-CTK ticket opens the exit barriers at STP and isn't retained, but doesn't open the entry barriers to the FCC platforms at STP. It seems rather inconsistent.

Also (again!) a CTM-London Terminals ticket isn't retained by the barriers at Cannon Street. Not sure why not because I can't see how you can use it for any subsequent travel from that point?