Just saw on BBC News at One that the government is considering scrapping fares regulation - allowing unlimited fare rises. Now I'm not for overregulation of the economy where it isn't necessary, but surely hasn't the bus industry taught us that deregulating monopolies is a bad idea. Monopolies are generally subject to some form of regulation - think water companies, BT Openreach, so what makes the railways any different? I suspect that the majority of flows are only served by one operator so competition cannot be relied upon to keep fares in check.
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Fares regulation to be scrapped?
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Failed Unit
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Fares are not regulated on buses and looks what happened to them. Removal for the fares regulation is going to solve overcrowding very quickly, no-one will be able to afford to travel by rail!
People will still be able to afford to but will have to book in advance.
What's more is the free marketeers seem to think this will put the rail industry in a better shape, yet the evidence from the bus industry isn't there. The two parts of the country where the bus industry has remained regulated (London and Northern Ireland) have seen passenger numbers go up much faster than in the rest of the UK. It'll just allow private companies to milk as much as they want out of passengers. I was personally braced for RPI+3%, at least there'd still be a cap then and fares would remain broadly affordable, but isn't this a step backwards? I thought the coalition government was going to help us go green, not charge us more for doing so. I bet the next fuel duty increase will be tiny as well.
For certain journeys the car isn't a realistic alternative though so people will have no choice but to pay higher fares or not travel at all.
Failed Unit
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Which is fine if you don't want to be in a major city before 0900 or leave a major city between 1600 and 1800. You know at the times that AP tickets already difficult to find or are not much cheaper than the standard single (so the operator gets more money as they are not sharing any of the revenue!)
Also remember that AP tickets only exist on IC routes, you don't find many between Lincoln and Nottingham, Edinburgh and Glasgow etc, etc, etc. The majority of rail passengers have no access to AP tickets. I don't think Northern for example offer any at all!
And don't forget those of us who can't drive or afford the running costs of a car...
Here's an article version of what I saw on TV http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11497144
This government appears to be using the defcit as an excuse to bring in measures that will be devastating to people's real, every day lives.
It will be a disaster for rail travellers, for the economy as a whole, and for car drivers who will have to use increasingly congested roads due to modal switch, if these ideas are implemented.
The only winners will be the TOC's, who are only in it for the short term and are only interested in the bottom line anyway.
It will be a disaster for rail travellers, for the economy as a whole, and for car drivers who will have to use increasingly congested roads due to modal switch, if these ideas are implemented.
The only winners will be the TOC's, who are only in it for the short term and are only interested in the bottom line anyway.
rail-britain
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Even if there is competition, collusion between operators (as they are members of ATOC) could also force prices up
cough, this was a well known practice with First Group and Stagecoach
Competition in the area, but some of the highest fares (pence per mile), once any and all other operators had left the routes
However, if the fare is prohibitively high then the farebox revenue falls and in extreme cases does not cover the operating costs
Personally, I do agree, let's do away with fare regulation of prices
However, regulation should remain in the fare types [day return, off-peak return, peak return, advance return]
Giving the government the prefect excuse to increase fuel duty to encourage a modal shift back to rail, generating more revenue for the TOCs.
What's the point of regulation if the TOCs can just raise the price of Off Peak to the same as Anytime?
You can't compare rail franchies with London Buses. The buses are a managed service and there is no room for the bus companies to make any money by changing fares. By comparison, rail franchises are largely specified by the government, with the franchisee able to offer services beyond the agreed minimum and benefit from any increased profits.
You must remember that government expects TOCs to increase their rail fares each year by RPI+1%. Many TOCs are in revenue support and the government still expects them to make as much money as possible.
Privatisation of the bus industry hasn't been a failure - if it had, we wouldn't have any buses on the road except for those funded by the local authority!
Ah but, you can get private operators easily setting up in opposition to the big companies like NX and Stagecoach, and running second- or third-hand 15 year-old Dennis Darts, charging (slightly) lower fares.
Not something you can exactly do on the rail network, methinks .....
Well, it wasn't a failure from a rail point of view in West Yorkshire. It shifted a load of people back onto the trains !
penaltyfines
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Raising fares far above inflation, reducing windows for off-peak travel is going to increase fare evasion - compounding the issue!
Personally I think the current fares system is indefensible and that regulation is stiffling any serious reform. Look at fare simplification it was a joke.
We need to get back to basics with fair countrywide basic rates.
Im in favour of scrapping the existing sytem and the regulation that goes with it.
We need to get back to basics with fair countrywide basic rates.
Im in favour of scrapping the existing sytem and the regulation that goes with it.
So would you like the TOCs to have the ability to set any fares they want? To use the most extreme example you would be happy for TOCs to completely withdraw Off Peak fares forcing people to either book in advance or pay the full Anytime fare?
Failed Unit
Established Member
So would I but I just dont trust the TOCs. Look at ATOC they suggest fare simplification was a success. What people want is to buy an off- peak ticket for example and it to be valid at the same time anywhere in the uk. Not x if EMT set it and Y if Xc set it. I doubt anyone will disagree we are now in a worse position than before simplification.
I doubt you will get any scheme extended to Northern Ireland.
Rail privatisation would be OK if all fares and timetables were specified by a regulatory body. Operators would merely offer to run the services for a fee, with the regulatory body receiving all revenue. That's what happens on London buses. Bus and rail privatisation is done this way in other areas of Europe.
I can't think of anywhere else in Europe where the franchisee has so much freedom to set fares as British TOCs. The only exception is that the company may be able to offer additional fares, such as regional tickets in the Netherlands.
YorkshireBear
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defeats the whole point of everything surely, lets just screw the railways completely....
So it's not been a failure because there are still *some* private buses?
There's plenty of areas where there aren't any buses except those funded by the local authority.
And then there's those where the profitable services used to pay for the unprofitable ones but now the profit goes to bus companies and the councils still have to pay for the others.
Very few areas have seen improvements in bus services. Since privatisation the village I grew up in has a third fewer buses, no link to one of the closest towns which used to have a service every hour 6am - 11pm, the first bus almost 2 hours later and is now served by 3 different bus companies instead of 1 making it more expensive to buy daily tickets (and in some areas the companies don't offer muti-operator tickets). The companies don't interwork so there's roads with 2 buses in 5 minutes than a gap of nearly 2 hours.
You are quite correct there, Deerfold. My old village is ine xactly the same position. The idea that people in power think this is a success and should be applied to railways, is frightening, and leads me to believe that the majority of people who believe this do not use either bus or rail at all!
WestCoast
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True, the UK seems to give a lot of power over fares and other matters to the TOCs. In Germany, each regional government awards contracts for local trains and the company that wins the contract simply runs the trains, they have no power over fares and little control over service levels! They may be able to set certain special fares such as rovers, but in general these fares have to be valid on all services in that particular area.
That's how it works with London Overground. It will be interesting to see which system is used for the Crossrail franchise.
These are true franchises. As is, for example, McDonalds where prices and shop livery are also set centrally.
The TOCs in GB have powers which are not really appropriate for a franchised operation.
I've never really understood why they are considered to be 'franchises'. Running a Post Office doesn;t enable me to control the prices of the products and services I offer on behalf of the PO!
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